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The trouble with Islam
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stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject:

Adventurer:

Quote:

You are maligning 1 plus billion believers of a religion as enablers of terrorism.

No, I'm condemning the FACT that far too many Islamic religious leaders either actively support or condone terrorism in the name of Allah.

Don't twist what I said to give the impression that I am accusing all Muslim faithful.

Many if not most of the crackdowns in the Middle East were initiated to preserve power for the various royal families. Stamping out jihadists who wish to spread jihad outside their own countries has not been their main concern and you're naive if you think otherwise.

Also, it is disingenuous to equate Baptist fundamentalists with Islamic fundamentalists. First, the former don't hold the reigns of power despite what anti-religious Bush haters project. Second, none of the leaders of the various Baptist conventions are calling for a holy war with Islam. Sure you have a few kooks like Robertson, who are evangelicals, fanning the flames but even most Baptists do not take his word as authority in foreign policy unlike in the Middle East.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:08 am Post subject:

stevemcgarrett wrote:

Adventurer:

Quote:

You are maligning 1 plus billion believers of a religion as enablers of terrorism.

No, I'm condemning the FACT that far too many Islamic religious leaders either actively support or condone terrorism in the name of Allah.

Don't twist what I said to give the impression that I am accusing all Muslim faithful.

[Steve, your choice of words did not indicate that even if you meant that. The words we use are important when dealing with people of other races whether Koreans, Muslims, or Baptists.

Yes, there are too many Islamic religious leaders who are fanatical in the name of God. Let us use the translation of the word Allah since the use of it the way you did above gives one the impression that Christians don't also called God Allah. Allah was used by Aramean Christians before Mohammed even was born. Look it up. Facts are important to me.

I think more Muslims and including religious scholars have condemned fanatics. Which is a positive change. I recall a fatwa from Spain by Muslims in Spain against Al Qaeda. I have heard of similar ones in North America. I believe Al Qaradawi, an Egyptian, who is very prominent on Al Jazeera is clearly anti Al Qaeda. Is enough being done? No. Is there a serious problem where Sheikhs or Imams need to be monitored. Most definitely, and it is being done by the intelligence services in various countries down there if you know how the secret service of those places operate in some of the countries.

Many if not most of the crackdowns in the Middle East were initiated to preserve power for the various royal families. Stamping out jihadists who wish to spread jihad outside their own countries has not been their main concern and you're naive if you think otherwise.

[That is like saying America's backing of fanatics in Afghanistan was really to spread democracy? I never claimed it was for altruistic reasons.
Did Bush really invade Iraq to spread democracy? You get my point.
The shoe can fit both sides on that scare. In Jordan, not only is the government against them but also the people. Al Qaeda is considered a threat to Jordanians in general. They are a cause for the exodus from Iraq to some extent, attacking Jordanians etc... So it is not actually as you portray it. In Egypt, they have hurt Egyptian tourism. It is not simply the government without popular support against fanatics.

Also, it is disingenuous to equate Baptist fundamentalists with Islamic fundamentalists. First, the former don't hold the reigns of power despite what anti-religious Bush haters project. Second, none of the leaders of the various Baptist conventions are calling for a holy war with Islam. Sure you have a few kooks like Robertson, who are evangelicals, fanning the flames but even most Baptists do not take his word as authority in foreign policy unlike in the Middle East.

Why not? I didn't bring that up. A poster brought them up, and I agreed.
They don't have the same power as the fundamentalists in an overt way, but we know Bush would not have been elected without their support.
You know that. Let's not kid each other on that, and we also know they were disproportionaly have been for Armageddon scenario.

The Baptists are not as overt as the Muslims. That is the difference, but they have pushed policy to some extent. There are about 20 million of them and they are one of the high turn out groups like the Jews and Muslims in North America. Steve I bet you wouldn't discount the influence of Muslims in France, but you are discouting the impact of Baptists on the wars launched in the name of the U.S.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:55 am Post subject:

Quote:

Steve I bet you wouldn't discount the influence of Muslims in France, but you are discouting the impact of Baptists on the wars launched in the name of the U.S.

And Steve, I've posted extensively and have a list as long as my arm, of very academic types writing about how influencial the church is in Washington....... Anatol Lieven for one with his, "America right or wrong" and here is a link to another fine rundown of the influence of the church on policy.... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19590

The White House bible study group and daily prayer meeting is much much better attended than any congressional session. Probably even more popular than C-span or Fox.

Quote:

The White House was alive with piety. Evangelical leaders were in and out on a regular basis. There were Bible study groups in the White House, as in John Ashcroft's Justice Department. Over half of the White House staff attended the meetings. One of the first things David Frum heard when he went to work there as a speech writer was: "Missed you at the Bible study."[5] According to Esther Kaplan:

Quote:

Aside from Rove and Cheney, Bush's inner circle are all deeply religious. [Condoleezza] Rice is a minister's daughter, chief of staff Andrew Card is a minister's husband, Karen Hughes is a church elder, and head speechwriter Michael Gerson is a born-again evangelical, a movement insider.[6]
Other parts of the administration were also pious, with religious services during the lunch hour at the General Services Administration.[7]

Yeah, alright....

DD

igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:07 am Post subject:

Booooo radickal Islam! Question: Who (GATEKEEPERS) lets these people with their diseased ideologies emmigrate to the west? Are they not able to see the friction & chaos which will ensue? Hmmmm ... maybe they $$$ do ... GOY. PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION.

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:28 am Post subject:

ddeubel opined:

Quote:

And Steve, I've posted extensively and have a list as long as my arm, of very academic types writing about how influencial the church is in Washington

I thought you had stubs for arms and typed on the keyboard with your nose? Oh, well.

Would those academic types happen to be atheists, agnostics, and all-around elistists who despise any semblance of religion in American life?

[Hint: That was a rhetorical question]. Rolling Eyes

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:37 am Post subject:

stevemcgarrett wrote:

ddeubel opined:

Quote:

And Steve, I've posted extensively and have a list as long as my arm, of very academic types writing about how influencial the church is in Washington

Steve, I think you are missing the point. It would be generally expected that some of the academics cricitizing the influence of Evangelicals would be non-Evangelicals and would not like their interference. You are not discounting here that they had a lot of power in American politics under this president. John Ashcroft was quite fanatical in his views, and he was not a pencil pusher. Right?

Many of those who objected to the extreme power of the Evangelicals were also American Protestants and Catholics and some moderate Jews who don't want too much religion in the halls of power in a country which has a constitution that speaks of the separation of church and state. The Evangelicals are almost like one church in a sense. The idea of the separation was so no one church would have too much power. You can't tell me that they don't influence the war moves of the president in the Middle East. Why are those writers discounted?
And why did you generalize those who objected to the Evangelicals
to be atheists? Many Christians have also opposed their influence. Quickly going into generalizations about whatever group is not really even-handed, and you strike me to be a rather decent fellow and a kind person.

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:02 am Post subject:

So what's your solution, Adventurer? Force Bush to discontinue his prayer meetings and breakfasts? Force Congress to give up the House Chaplain, the opening prayer, and strike the words "In God We Trust" from our coins? Have a litmus test for those nominated by the President-elect to hold Cabinet level postions? And how many of those most vocal in opposing this influence are members of the opposition party or sympathetic to its causes? C'mon, get real.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:42 am Post subject:

Quote:

[Hint: That was a rhetorical question].

Very revealing. That is also what you are, a rhetorical answer. No substance, smoke and puff and dross.....please start replying with more than platitudes and monotonic mundosities.......Atleast in all my pomposity, I don't take my writing persona seriously. You on the other hand, are vanilla ice cream without the vanilla.

And fact of the matter is, I've been writing on these issues, long before you began to be weaned (probably only a few years ago....).

Back on topic. To dumb my first reply down. It was about the need to see that we, whoever, whatever culture, have our own bias and our own blind spot. We scream and rant and at the same time, dance about just as out of tune as the other. Only, we think our music is more in tune..........wisdom is seeing THROUGH difference and into similarity and most importantly finding a way to reconcile through that most prevalent common denominator (and hey, it isn't a number, your numbness....)

so get with it, or do without it. Christian fervour rules political thought in the U.S. of A and it is precisely because of this why they shouldn't be poking anything in any other orficies of the globe. If they were "real" secular warriors, atuned to human rights and freedoms, I'd get a subscription. They aren't....... [and I'm not refering to the brave young men and women but rather the guys at the wheel.]

DD

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject:

stevemcgarrett wrote:

So what's your solution, Adventurer?

Force Bush to discontinue his prayer meetings and breakfasts?

Force Congress to give up the House Chaplain, the opening prayer, and strike the words "In God We Trust" from our coins?

Have a litmus test for those nominated by the President-elect to hold Cabinet level postions?

And how many of those most vocal in opposing this influence are members of the opposition party or sympathetic to its causes?

C'mon, get real.

You are skirting the issue and not reading what I said. A Chaplain is not necessarily an apocalypse, Bible thumper who would encourage War in Iraq because of a certain radical religious views shaping his world view.
I am quite real, because these people do not represent the philosophical bent of the separation of church sects from the state. There were many sects when the United States was founded and fighting between them.
The constitution ended to keep one from having too much influence.
It would be one thing if we were saying people of the likes of John Ashcroft were moderates.

If people want to have prayer breakfasts, it is the least of my worries, though it is unusual for a Western country, but I am not objecting and nor did I say remove "In God We Trust". I simply said radicals have also influenced policy in negative ways and they are too motivated by narrow interpretations and policy issues such as abortion and gay marriage while the country was heading into trouble. I was saying that the Evangelicals contribute to the divisions and the situation of war in the Middle East and not only the Jews and Muslims.

postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Back on topic. To dumb my first reply down. It was about the need to see that we, whoever, whatever culture, have our own bias and our own blind spot. We scream and rant and at the same time, dance about just as out of tune as the other. Only, we think our music is more in tune..........wisdom is seeing THROUGH difference and into similarity and most importantly finding a way to reconcile through that most prevalent common denominator (and hey, it isn't a number, your numbness....)

so get with it, or do without it. Christian fervour rules political thought in the U.S. of A and it is precisely because of this why they shouldn't be poking anything in any other orficies of the globe. I

crap crap and more crap......I for one will be happy to scream and dance if it'll put pressure on people to stop things like ohhh genital mutilation, the killing of open homosexuals, and religous minorities who suffer oppression on arguably a much higher level than those in the West.......of course you'll be happy to let those things continue so long as we take up a vast majority of our time overly preoccupied with our own blind spots....Actually you should go and think deeply about one of your major blind spots....How much time do you devote to ragging on American Christians vs the amount of harm being done by Islamic doctrine this very moment.

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