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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:57 am Post subject: Proud of one of my students |
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She's about 16 and she's contesting an answer on her English midterm.
The question is about this sentence:
"He was the biggest and strongest."
Which one has the same meaning?
1. "Nobody was bigger or stronger than him."
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than him"
She claims 1 is the correct answer, but her teacher swears it's 2. To me it's obvious. Answer 2 means that nobody possessed both characteristics of size and strength in excess of the man's, but one person could be smaller and stronger, or bigger and weaker.
Anyway, the teacher isn't seeing the light, even with my student taking all this good stuff and totally proving she's wrong. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
She's about 16 and she's contesting an answer on her English midterm.
The question is about this sentence:
"He was the biggest and strongest."
Which one has the same meaning?
1. "Nobody was bigger or stronger than him."
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than him"
She claims 1 is the correct answer, but her teacher swears it's 2. To me it's obvious. Answer 2 means that nobody possessed both characteristics of size and strength in excess of the man's, but one person could be smaller and stronger, or bigger and weaker.
Anyway, the teacher isn't seeing the light, even with my student taking all this good stuff and totally proving she's wrong. |
The first sentence establishes the man as the upper limit in terms of strength and size. It also establishes that no one else can have either quality, either together or separate. No one can be bigger than him but weaker. No one can be smaller than him but stronger.
You can break this sentence down:
He is smelly and mean.
He is smelly.
He is mean.
You can break the first sentence of your problem down into two:
He is the strongest.
He is the biggest.
No one can cross either of those two limits in any way.
So I think 2 is correct.
But let's look at it this way:
1. "Nobody was bigger or stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 1 still a true sentence? No. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 2 still a true sentence? Yes. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But nobody had both qualities.
But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
Working backwards, both sentences are correct given the initial conditions.
But what if we wrote it this way:
Sam was the only green and blue person there.
Do we mean to say:
Sam was the only green person there.
Sam was the only blue person there.
It's understood Sam is the only person with both green and blue.
1. "Nobody was green or blue."
2. "Nobody was green and blue."
It's obvious now that 2 is the right answer. Some people could be green. Some people could be blue. But no one was green and blue.
on her English midterm.
The question is about this sentence:
"He was the biggest and strongest."
Which one has the same meaning?
1. "Nobody was bigger or stronger than him."
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than him"
She claims 1 is the correct answer, but her teacher swears it's 2. To me it's obvious. Answer 2 means that nobody possessed both characteristics of size and strength in excess of the man's, but one person could be smaller and stronger, or bigger and weaker.
Anyway, the teacher isn't seeing the light, even with my student taking all this good stuff and totally proving she's wrong.[/quote]
The first sentence establishes the man as the upper limit in terms of strength and size. It also establishes that no one else can have either quality, either together or separate. No one can be bigger than him but weaker. No one can be smaller than him but stronger.
You can break this sentence down:
He is smelly and mean.
He is smelly.
He is mean.
You can break the first sentence of your problem down into two:
He is the strongest.
He is the biggest.
No one can cross either of those two limits in any way.
So I think 2 is correct.
But let's look at it this way:
1. "Nobody was bigger or stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 1 still a true sentence? No. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 2 still a true sentence? Yes. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But nobody had both qualities.
But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
Working backwards, both sentences are correct given the initial conditions.
But what if we wrote it this way:
Sam was the only green and only blue person there.
Now we mean to say:
Sam was the only green person there.
Sam was the only blue person there.
1. "Nobody was green or blue."
2. "Nobody was green and blue."
It's obvious now that 1 is the right answer.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Thu May 03, 2007 1:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:38 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 2 still a true sentence? Yes. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But nobody had both qualities.
But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
Working backwards, both sentences are correct given the initial conditions.
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I disagree with you.
Let's use your example:
"Nobody was bigger and stronger than Sam."
Now let's say Bob is bigger than Sam. That's okay as long as he isn't stronger than Sam. He is not "bigger and stronger." The wording of the sentence is "Nobody possessed both qualities of being bigger and stronger than Sam." That means a person can be one of the two.
Looking at your argument, you basically disproved that they're the same thing, which means you agree with me. Answer (2) permits one quality, but the original sentence rejects them both.
Anyway, I think either way we can both agree my student is correct that her answer is not wrong. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
1. "Nobody was bigger or stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 1 still a true sentence? No. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
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You misread this one. "Bigger or stronger" does not mean "one or the other." It means "one or both."
"Nobody was bigger or stronger than Sam" = Bob was not bigger or stronger than Sam." |
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robot
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Regardless, what a stupid question for an English test...
ROBT. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Heres a funny one. First question on the first year's midterm. There was a bunch of extra wordage but it boiled down to this:
"______ to meet you."
"I am ______ to meet you too."
Which word is incorrect:
a) nice
b) good
c) happy
d) fun
e) pleased |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
2. "Nobody was bigger and stronger than Sam."
Bob was bigger. Roger was stronger. Is sentence 2 still a true sentence? Yes. Some were bigger. Some were stronger. But nobody had both qualities.
But if we limited the conditions with the original sentence:
"Sam was the biggest and strongest."
Bob could not be bigger. Roger could not be stronger.
Working backwards, both sentences are correct given the initial conditions.
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I disagree with you.
Let's use your example:
"Nobody was bigger and stronger than Sam."
Now let's say Bob is bigger than Sam. That's okay as long as he isn't stronger than Sam. He is not "bigger and stronger." The wording of the sentence is "Nobody possessed both qualities of being bigger and stronger than Sam." That means a person can be one of the two.
Looking at your argument, you basically disproved that they're the same thing, which means you agree with me. Answer (2) permits one quality, but the original sentence rejects them both.
Anyway, I think either way we can both agree my student is correct that her answer is not wrong. |
But wait, you're not taking into account the restrictions imposed by the initial sentence. The initial sentence was saying Sam was the biggest. Sam was the strongest. No one can have either qualities.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Thu May 03, 2007 1:53 am; edited 6 times in total |
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robot
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| e) |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
Heres a funny one. First question on the first year's midterm. There was a bunch of extra wordage but it boiled down to this:
"______ to meet you."
"I am ______ to meet you too."
Which word is incorrect:
a) nice
b) good
c) happy
d) fun
e) pleased |
E is obviously an appropriate substitute for the blank, but I would consider accepting C as well. Which one is incorrect? |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Ah you're probably right.
What if the initial sentence was "Nobody was bigger OR stronger than Sam."
What would be the correct answer? |
Then it would be "Sam is the biggest and the strongest," although there is a possibility someone is equal to him.
Here's a more theoretical explanation.
Let's say A = biggest
And B = strongest
I am A and B.
Now let's say we have another person who is neither A nor B. How are both of these different?
You are not (A and B).
You are not (A or B).
Logically, "not (A and B)" can be changed to "not A or not B."
However, "not (A or B)" is equivalent to "not A and not B."
(PS: Not you per se) |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
Ah you're probably right.
What if the initial sentence was "Nobody was bigger OR stronger than Sam."
What would be the correct answer? |
Then it would be "Sam is the biggest and the strongest," although there is a possibility someone is equal to him.
Here's a more theoretical explanation.
Let's say A = biggest
And B = strongest
I am A and B.
Now let's say we have another person who is neither A nor B. How are both of these different?
You are not (A and B).
You are not (A or B).
(PS: Not you per se) |
Wait I edited my response  Mr. Bush I respectfully withdraw my capitulation. Now don't get snippy with me |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: Re: Proud of one of my students |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Wait I edited my response Mr. Bush I respectfully withdraw my capitulation. Now don't get snippy with me |
Just having fun playing with logic. You helped me figure out the exact proof that I need to defend my student. |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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And just to be annoying, the prescriptivist rules still in place in standardized testing, etc. call for the subject pronoun:
Nobody was bigger and stronger than he. |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| schwa wrote: |
Heres a funny one. First question on the first year's midterm. There was a bunch of extra wordage but it boiled down to this:
"______ to meet you."
"I am ______ to meet you too."
Which word is incorrect:
a) nice
b) good
c) happy
d) fun
e) pleased |
E is obviously an appropriate substitute for the blank, but I would consider accepting C as well. Which one is incorrect? |
I'd accept either happy or pleased.
ilovebdt |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
Heres a funny one. First question on the first year's midterm. There was a bunch of extra wordage but it boiled down to this:
"______ to meet you."
"I am ______ to meet you too."
Which word is incorrect:
a) nice
b) good
c) happy
d) fun
e) pleased |
Definitely a), especially because of the second sentence. |
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