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rhinocharge64
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Grammar question |
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Could anyone please help with the following grammatic examples:
Korea had insisted that rice be excluded from the proposed agreement.
In this example it is correct to use the verb 'had' with the verb 'insisted'.
I had passed the TOEIC exam two weeks...
In this example 'had' can't be used with the verb 'passed'.
My question: Why can we use the verb 'had' in the first example, but not in the second example?
Any comments to help explain this grammatic point will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance-The Charge |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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| rhinocharge64 wrote: |
Could anyone please help with the following grammatic examples:
Korea had insisted that rice be excluded from the proposed agreement.
In this example it is correct to use the verb 'had' with the verb 'insisted'.
I had passed the TOEIC exam two weeks...
In this example 'had' can't be used with the verb 'passed'.
My question: Why can we use the verb 'had' in the first example, but not in the second example?
Any comments to help explain this grammatic point will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance-The Charge |
Why do you say the second example can't be used? It's fine so long as it is referring to an event that occurred before another even that happened in the past. "I had passed the TOEIC exam two weeks before they changed the rules so I had to take it again." Just like in the first example they are implying that the insistence occurred before something else happened in the past. "Korea had insisted that rice be excluded from the proposed agreement... but after negotiations they agreed to compromise"  |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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| rhinocharge64 wrote: |
Could anyone please help with the following grammatic examples:
Korea had insisted that rice be excluded from the proposed agreement.
In this example it is correct to use the verb 'had' with the verb 'insisted'.
I had passed the TOEIC exam two weeks...
In this example 'had' can't be used with the verb 'passed'.
My question: Why can we use the verb 'had' in the first example, but not in the second example?
Any comments to help explain this grammatic point will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance-The Charge |
These are both examples of past perfect tense, formed by using the past tense form of the auxillary verb 'have' with the past participle of the main verb (e.g., insisted and passed, in these examples).
Past Perfect is used to indicate that one event has been completed in the past prior to another past event, e.g.:
He had left the office when the package arrived.
In cases where the chronological relationship of the events is clear (often through the use of 'before' or 'after'), the use of past perfect is optional, e.g.:
He had left the office before the package arrived.
He left the office before the package arrived.
Both of these are grammatically correct. They differ in how information is being treated. The past perfect is often used to indicate that the information provided with it is background to more important information given in the past simple. Thus, in the first sentence above, the arrival of the package is being emphasized as the important information in the sentence (a point reinforced by its position towards the end of the sentence). In the second sentence, the information about the two actions is being treated more equally in terms of importance. (Ron Carter and Michael McCarthy have written on this aspect of information structure in discourse.)
So, both your sentences are grammatical, as long as the second one has some completion, like, "I had passed the TOEFL two weeks before I got married."
Last edited by Woland on Sat May 05, 2007 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rhinocharge64
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers guys thanks for the feedback, and the clarification. I will pass on your explanation to the Korean Professor who insisted the latter one was incorrect.
Regards The Charge |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Have you ever heard this joke?
James, while John had had "had," had had "had had."
"Had had" had had the most marks on the exam.
10 in a row! |
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J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| rhinocharge64 wrote: |
| I will pass on your explanation to the Korean Professor who insisted the latter one was incorrect. |
You need to look at the whole sentence (and maybe even the sentences before it) to know whether it is incorrect or not. Your leaving the sentence incomplete like that is ambiguous. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| I love you, Woland. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Even if I don't refer to Turkey as "occupied Greece"? 
Thanks. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Great explanation by Woland, especially in stressing that the important information is that in the past simple.
But I would add the comment that in everyday speech, the Past Perfect isn't being used and is generally one day going to "archaic". It is still common and very essential for context in written English.
What bothers me (but it is only my personal glitch - the English language marches on irregardless) is omitting "had" in the case of unreal past conditionals.
If I had had the time, I would have gone to the party."
Instead we all say, "If I had the time, I would have gone to the party."
Bugs me for some reason
DD |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Past simple, now there's a real brainer...  |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
Even if I don't refer to Turkey as "occupied Greece"?
Thanks. |
Well, of course. I would never let so trifling a matter as geo-political differences of opinion get in the way of my appreciation and gratitude for the good you do on this board in so cogently explaining points of grammar that are not simple even for people who "know" grammar to explain.
My priorities in this are, I believe, correct.
Besides, I really only think of the region of Ancient Ionia and everything in between it and modern Greece as "occupied." The Turks can have Cappodocia and Cilicia as far as I'm concerned.
You're welcome. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Instead we all say, "If I had the time, I would have gone to the party." |
Except that we do not all say this. Some of us, when we hear the "most" of us say this, still cringe.
In fact, though, what I hear more often is, "If I'd had the time, I would have [ ]."
Though it's entirely possible that I'm not listening carefully enough. It's also entirely possible that it's been too long since you've heard native speakers in great enough numbers to gauge how most of us use the past perfect, conditionally.
If I am wrong, I am horrified. Let's start a petition. |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Instead we all say, "If I had the time, I would have gone to the party." |
Except that we do not all say this. Some of us, when we hear the "most" of us say this, still cringe.
In fact, though, what I hear more often is, "If I'd had the time, I would have [ ]."
Though it's entirely possible that I'm not listening carefully enough. It's also entirely possible that it's been too long since you've heard native speakers in great enough numbers to gauge how most of us use the past perfect, conditionally.
If I am wrong, I am horrified. Let's start a petition. |
Nope, I agree with you.
ilovebdt |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Some of us are more likely to cringe when others of us try to apply the prescriptive and homogenizing conventions of written English to those of us just trying to carry on a pleasant conversation.
I, for one, am under doctor's orders to avoid the cringe unless absolutely irremediable, however. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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ddeubel: isn't it "regardless"?
Sorry, but I couldn't resist. |
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