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MULTICULTURALISM: THE NEW CHALLENGE TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS?
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thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:54 am Post subject:

The statement you were asked to clairfy:

Quote:

Maybe not "any and all," but most Westerners, especially anti-multiculturalists, seem to have a much lower tolerance for foreign culture than non-Westerners do

The clarification:

Quote:

I believe other countries are much more influenced by Western culture, especially American culture, than the West is influenced by their culture.

Try again.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:

Quote:

The biggest example would probably be the EFL industry, particularly in Asia. But certainly Western media, television, movies, fashion, and culinary tastes have had a great influence as well. I could give more specific examples, such as Uzbek being switched from a Cyrillic alphabet to a Latin alphabet. Or large Western tourist ghettos in SE Asia. But I imagine anyone living in Asia can come up with a list of their own examples.

I agree with you that on things like pop culture and maybe(in some places)even alphabets, other countries are way ahead of the west in embracing foreign things and ideas.

But yeah, I'm not really sure if that's what's meant by multiculturalism. I think it has more to do with accomadating actual customs and lifestyles.

How far do you think a Sikh would get in Korea if he joined the police force, and tried to get them to make the uniform more amenable to his religious strictures? I'm having a hard time imagining a Sikh even joining a Korean police force.

But I do acknowledge that, in terms of exposure to commerical arts and entertainment from foreign cultures, Koreans are far more cosmopolitan than your average North American.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

But I do acknowledge that, in terms of exposure to commercial arts and entertainment from foreign cultures, Koreans are far more cosmopolitan than your average North American.

Only if you consider Europe and North America to be one culture, and Asia to have many. I, however, don't. They don't have more cosmopolitan exposures, they have a different set of "others" to absorb. It just seems that their others are more plentiful than ours, because our others are ours and familiar.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:17 am Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Quote:

Maybe not "any and all," but most Westerners, especially anti-multiculturalists, seem to have a much lower tolerance for foreign culture than non-Westerners do.

Wow. Demonstrate that with evidence.

Compare this with this. I don't have time to count the number of threads bitching about the others culture, but at a glance, I'd say the latter wins, hands down. And that's not even including threads that were deleted. Right stevie?

Quote:

Or would you not be up set at seeing Spanish mandatory in every American school from elementary to high school?

Spanish isn't culture. It is a language. Do I need to reteach you what culture is and isn't? Can't you just look a few posts up?

So you don't blame the preponderance of Spanish in America on "multiculturalism"? Okay. So what exactly is the threat of multiculturalism?

Quote:

There are very good reasons for keeping the school/government etc etc exclusive to one language. If students choose to take Spanish as an option, or parents choose to send their kids to a bilingual school that is totally different. But mandatory is quite different.

That you missed an obvious reference to the EFL industry says a lot.

Quote:

You aren't a European descended American, are you?

I find it sad, albeit humorous, how you always try to categorize me. Will knowing my gender, sexual orientation, religion, and ethnicity somehow make you feel better? Make it easier for you to pigeon hole me and reconcile my ideas?

Quote:

Do you think that half of Africa and SE Asia became muslim by choice? Do you know anything about the history of Africa or the Americas before the White man arrived?

...

They want the crimes of a bunch of dead people to be associated for ever with their genetic descendants. That is FULL ON racist. And that is, exactly, what you are doing.

And you aren't? Sheesh. Do you even read your posts before hitting submit?

Quote:

The ideas of individual liberty, freedom from government, reason/logic, science, representative governments and such are Western ideas. There has been modern "Western" imperialism (The Philippines, Iraq etc) but by and large the offending governments were totalitarian dictatorships that have no relationships with the modern culture we call Western.

We're talking about cultural influences. Try to keep up.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Only if you consider Europe and North America to be one culture, and Asia to have many. I, however, don't.

Neither do I. Which is why I'm always mystified by the claim that multiculturalism is infringing on the sacred Western culture.

So tell us, what exactly are the threats being imposed by multiculturalism?

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:30 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Well, it is multicultural in the syncretic model. Which is what I'm trying to defend. Even though everyone else wants to introduce unrelated concepts into the discussion.

Quote:

How far do you think a Sikh would get in Korea if he joined the police force, and tried to get them to make the uniform more amenable to his religious strictures?

I believe this is a situation that diverges from the syncretic model. It's certainly less benign than what I'm trying to idealize.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:34 am Post subject:

I grew up in a very cosmopolitan city with tens of thousands of Middle Eastern people that I would see and interact with every single day. I worked for them. I also had them work for me when I was a manager. I'm not just talking about a few either. I have known hundreds of Arabs in my life, if not thousands. NONE and I mean absolutely NONE (zip zero zilch) of the men showed me any sort of disrespect. In FACT, the vast majority were incredibly outstanding gentlemen with generosity that compelled me to shed a few tears in private (thinking, "why can't all people be this way). I still speak with Muslim people from around the world via the internet, emails etc. I have friends in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Bahrain, UAE, Qatar etc. I'm overwhelmed with their generosity. So I'm baffled when I hear stories about Muslim women being beat. I certainly never heard stories like this around my community. All the women being beaten were white, by white men. As a woman myself, I have found that white men are the most disrespectful and abusive to me and the people in my community. I'm talking about severe abuse too. I've seen and heard the worst type of stories - always white women being beat severly by white men. It's a real made up myth that white men like to put in the faces of women - that the white men are angels compared with Middle Eastern/Muslim men. All I can say now is that the Middle Eastern men have never EVER EVER showed me disrespect while all other types of men have done so, most of all white men (to extremes).

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

I'm always mystified by the claim that multiculturalism is infringing on the sacred Western culture.

So tell us, what exactly are the threats being imposed by multiculturalism?

Public policy is a world away from EFL.

Let me outline for you two, very key points. Upon absorbing them, you might be able to join us mid-stride.

1) All nations have a multitude of cultures, to some extent. Cultures change, adapt, interact and intertwine. This is normal, and can be overwhelmingly positive provided the economic and political situation is good and reasonably equitable.

2) Multiculturalism, as public policy, intends to keep cultures stationary and separate. People aren't individuals, but from a "community". Gordon Browne (sp) has talked about this much recently. The "threat" comes when the various communities become representatives of the individuals. Look to England, where even arresting a terrorist muslim brings protests from the "community". Do you understand? Carving a country into competing groups is insanity. Giving legitimacy to absurd assumptions is insanity. Culture is fluid and always changing. Giving legal authority to "other" assumptions and then narrowly defining who "they" are is insanity.

Brown women deserve liberty too.

3) To summarize. The problems isn't different cultures inside of one state, but the state policy of keeping these cultures distinct from eachother.

This isn't typically a threat to Western culture in itself, but could threaten the dominance of Western culture within Western nations. If you think that is a problem or not is subjective. But the reality of it is quite clear.

islam, is a whole other bag of problems.

About your evidence.. Using two message sites as evidence demonstrates only how separated from reality you are.. This site, and the AF site, are not reality. Not even close. Get out and interact with flesh and blood humans. Why not offer the Star Wars movie as evidence of the problems of a democracy?

I said:

Quote:

They want the crimes of a bunch of dead people to be associated for ever with their genetic descendants. That is FULL ON racist. And that is, exactly, what you are doing.

You replied:

Quote:

And you aren't? Sheesh. Do you even read your posts before hitting submit?

I want the crimes of dead people to be associated with whom? Where have I made reference to that? Are you able to read?

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:44 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Well, it is multicultural in the syncretic model. Which is what I'm trying to defend. Even though everyone else wants to introduce unrelated concepts into the discussion.

Quote:

How far do you think a Sikh would get in Korea if he joined the police force, and tried to get them to make the uniform more amenable to his religious strictures?

I believe this is a situation that diverges from the syncretic model. It's certainly less benign than what I'm trying to idealize.

If by multiculturalism, you mean an approach that doesn't extend to things like changing policies in order to accomadate religious or cultural preferences, then I don't think we're really talking about the same thing. I doubt that too many westerners argue against Mexican films at the local repertory theatre, or against having an Ethiopian deli in the nighbourhood.

Nor do I think that many people object to the mere teaching of foreign languages in schools. Even in redneck Alberta, the main objection was that French was required for govenment employment, not that it was taught in the schools.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:54 am Post subject:

Quote:

So I'm baffled when I hear stories about Muslim women being beat.

Would you like some evidence? Google might help..

Quote:

I certainly never heard stories like this around my community. All the women being beaten were white, by white men.

"All"?

Quote:

As a woman myself, I have found that white men are the most disrespectful and abusive to me and the people in my community.

Sorry to hear that. Really.

Who, exactly, is your community?

Quote:

I'm talking about severe abuse too. I've seen and heard the worst type of stories - always white women being beat severly by white men.

Some comparative evidence might be nice... Though, painfully hard to come by.

Quote:

It's a real made up myth that white men like to put in the faces of women - that the white men are angels compared with Middle Eastern/Muslim men.

Are you sure about that.. You might want to consider the possibility that what happens in the "community" stays in the "community". You are being very silly, relying on hear/say.

Quote:

All I can say now is that the Middle Eastern men have never EVER EVER showed me disrespect while all other types of men have done so, most of all white men (to extremes).

Sorry to hear that. No female ever deserves disrespect, regardless of her anything. BUT, you may want to search for some comparative, country-country, culture-culture data on spousal abuse, or VAW in general.

Keep in mind too, that "white" is a socially constructed term. I don't think you are exactly well versed in either argumentation or, well, anything at all, but when you speak of "white" you are actually lumping dozens of separate cultures together as one, and ascribing the bad traits of the worst apples to the whole. For example, Swedes and Finns are notorious for beating their women after a good drunk, while the French typically wouldn't dare. You might want to refine your positions a tad further. How about a European descended Latin American? They are likely among the worst in the world for VAW, and racially "white", yet not counted as "white", when "white" is typically being described.

jinju

Joined: 22 Jan 2006

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject:

Vicissitude wrote:

I grew up in a very cosmopolitan city with tens of thousands of Middle Eastern people that I would see and interact with every single day. I worked for them. I also had them work for me when I was a manager. I'm not just talking about a few either. I have known hundreds of Arabs in my life, if not thousands. NONE and I mean absolutely NONE (zip zero zilch) of the men showed me any sort of disrespect. In FACT, the vast majority were incredibly outstanding gentlemen with generosity that compelled me to shed a few tears in private (thinking, "why can't all people be this way). I still speak with Muslim people from around the world via the internet, emails etc. I have friends in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Bahrain, UAE, Qatar etc. I'm overwhelmed with their generosity. So I'm baffled when I hear stories about Muslim women being beat. I certainly never heard stories like this around my community. All the women being beaten were white, by white men.

As a woman myself, I have found that white men are the most disrespectful and abusive to me and the people in my community. I'm talking about severe abuse too. I've seen and heard the worst type of stories - always white women being beat severly by white men. It's a real made up myth that white men like to put in the faces of women - that the white men are angels compared with Middle Eastern/Muslim men. All I can say now is that the Middle Eastern men have never EVER EVER showed me disrespect while all other types of men have done so, most of all white men (to extremes).

Oh look, Big Bird got herself a sock

jinju

Joined: 22 Jan 2006

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Sorry to hear that. No female ever deserves disrespect, regardless of her anything.

Oh please, thats like saying all women are beautiful. Stupid women deserve disrespect.

Why do you even respond seriously to big bird's new sock?

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

I believe this is a situation that diverges from the syncretic model. It's certainly less benign than what I'm trying to idealize.

This is the what I said earlier in this thread that spawned the last couple of pages:

Quote:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l800871577132122/

One paragraph in particular stands out as concurring with my vision of multiculturalism.

Quote:

Multiculturalism entails two opposite visions, articulated by its respective proponents and opponents: syncretism and fragmentation. The syncretist vision is eloquently outlined by Salman Rushdie, who sees mass migration as a possibility to "(celebrate) hybridity, impurity, intermingling, the transformation that comes from new and unexpected combinations of human beings, cultures, ideas, politics, movies, songs," the migrant condition as a "metaphor for all humanity." In this benign vision, multiculturalism realizes the old enlightenment dream of the unbounded "perfectibility of the human race." The postcolonial literary imagination of Rushdie or Vikram Seth, popular "world music," or the vibrant art world of Los Angeles give a hint of the syncretist riches of multiculturalism.

This, albeit somewhat idealized, version of multiculturalism is what I've been trying to discuss. I haven't been trying to defend the official, multicultural policy that often fragments nations.

Quote:

Nor do I think that many people object to the mere teaching of foreign languages in schools. Even in redneck Alberta, the main objection was that French was required for govenment employment, not that it was taught in the schools.

Isn't a certain level of English required for entry into almost every university in Korea? As well as for government employment?

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

I'm always mystified by the claim that multiculturalism is infringing on the sacred Western culture.

So tell us, what exactly are the threats being imposed by multiculturalism?

Public policy is a world away from EFL.

Not when English is required in all of the schools, and becomes a measuring stick for any decent employment. And no, English isn't the be all and end all of culture. But it certainly is one of the most visible and symbolic.

This is a very popular bumper sticker in the US:

Don't you think it has just a little something to do with the cultural impact of Mexicans?

Quote:

1) All nations have a multitude of cultures, to some extent. Cultures change, adapt, interact and intertwine. This is normal, and can be overwhelmingly positive provided the economic and political situation is good and reasonably equitable.

I agree.

Quote:

2) Multiculturalism, as public policy, intends to keep cultures stationary and separate. People aren't individuals, but from a "community". Gordon Browne (sp) has talked about this much recently. The "threat" comes when the various communities become representatives of the individuals.

Let me reiterate:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l800871577132122/

I see this as good multiculturalism:

Quote:

The syncretist vision is eloquently outlined by Salman Rushdie, who sees mass migration as a possibility to "celebrate) hybridity, impurity, intermingling, the transformation that comes from new and unexpected combinations of human beings, cultures, ideas, politics, movies, songs," the migrant condition as a "metaphor for all humanity." In this benign vision, multiculturalism realizes the old enlightenment dream of the unbounded "perfectibility of the human race." The postcolonial literary imagination of Rushdie or Vikram Seth, popular "world music," or the vibrant art world of Los Angeles give a hint of the syncretist riches of multiculturalism.

and this as bad multiculturalism:

Quote:

But in the realm of politics, multiculturalism is more likely to entail the less benign vision of fragmentation. Post-riot Los Angeles, with its bitter inter-ethnic competition among Blacks, Koreans, and Latinos for scarce "rebuildingr" resources, and with its dismal trend towards colorconscious "Balkan justice" in the legal system, gives a hint at the seamier side of multiculturalism.

So yes, I essentially agree with point 2.

Quote:

3) To summarize. The problems isn't different cultures inside of one state, but the state policy of keeping these cultures distinct from eachother.

Please show me where I've tried to defend the state policy of maintaining distinct cultures?

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Quote:

Spanish isn't culture. It is a language. Do I need to reteach you what culture is and isn't? Can't you just look a few posts up?

Exactly the case but don't expect huffdaddy, who's apparently as isolated culturally as his avatar, to understand.

Have you been around the U.S. lately HuffnPuffDaddy? Bilingual print is encroaching on almost every public space. Spanish is slowly becoming the second language. I find no fault with that in practice but as a matter of national language policy it is foolish. And I would say the same if they tried to make German the second language although I speak it fairly well.

The number of Americans and legal/illegal residents who speak Spanish has reached such a critical mass that advertizers concerned with expanding their customer base and government officials looking to do outreach and celebrate diversity have made Spanish a de facto second national language, especially in the Southwest.

Quote:

Don't you think it has just a little something to do with the cultural impact of Mexicans?

Of course it does, and so what? Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Costa Ricans, and other Latinos who settle in the U.S. tend to be bilingual and want to learn English quickly. Not so for most Mexican immigrants, especially the illegal ones. They get by on survival English, if any. This is unprecedented in American immigrant history and is frankly quite self-serving.

Your talk of syncretism and fragmentation sounds dandy but it's more simplistic binary thinking, like East vs. West. I realize you're a postcolonialist but much of what they believe is nothing more than repackaged colonialism--in reverse.

Quote:

Isn't a certain level of English required for entry into almost every university in Korea? As well as for government employment?

Yes, and we see how well most Koreans take to learning and actually using English in the workplace and street. Rolling Eyes

The government adopted this position for utilitarian reasons and nothing more. They strain out cultural aspects of language learning in favor of basic CLT. So it's not a reflection of embracing another target language's culture. Please, spare us.

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