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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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 Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: Which sentence is correct and why? - Updated. |
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Hi
One of my co-teachers asked me about this and I am not sure of the answer.
What does "is" refer to in this sentence?
My co-teacher thinks "the standards". But, then "standards" are plural, so in theory it should be "are necessary" and not "is necessary". But, "are necessary" doesn't sound right to me.
Does the "is" refer to "necessary?
Here is the beginning of the sentence: Parents must impose standards of behavior on their children to keep them safe and to teach them values.
A) However, the standards should not be any more strict than is necessary.
B) However, the standards should not be any more strict than are necessary.
Any ideas folks?
ilovebdt
Last edited by ilovebdt on Mon May 07, 2007 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| standards, plural so are....is is blatantly incorrect and doesn't sound right either. |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| "Is" is correct because the verb doesn't refer to "standards." It's something like a passive construction, and "is" refers to a dummy/implied subject, like "it". |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| faster wrote: |
| "Is" is correct because the verb doesn't refer to "standards." It's something like a passive construction, and "is" refers to a dummy/implied subject, like "it". |
The standardS implies "they" but not "it". |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| faster wrote: |
| "Is" is correct because the verb doesn't refer to "standards." It's something like a passive construction, and "is" refers to a dummy/implied subject, like "it". |
The standardS implies "they" but not "it". |
no, no, more like "the situation requires" or something like that. The standards don't require themselves to be strict or lenient. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| "Is" is correct because the verb doesn't refer to "standards." It's something like a passive construction, and "is" refers to a dummy/implied subject, like "it". |
I don't follow you at all.......probably just me and my lack of morning coffee.....
I think both are correct. Depends on if you are using 'standards" as a countable noun or uncountable. Some nouns have this double jointed ability.
Put "than that/those which is/are" [necessary] into the sentence and you will see the clarification. Is/Are refer to the noun unstated in the phrase (that/those) which is a pronoun refering to "standards"....
Now, I'm confused. 
DD |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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ilovebdt |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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1) It has to be A). The sentence should read "...than it is necessary for them to be" but the subject there is implied and uses the indicator "it" so you still use the singular verb. "Are necessary" is just retarded.
2) I would take out the verb all together, ie. "no more strict than necessary." That would be a more normal usage. Sounds like it was written like a Korean, otherwise. |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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What does the "is" refer to though?
ilovebdt |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
| 1) It has to be A). The sentence should read "...than it is necessary for them to be" but the subject there is implied and uses the indicator "it" so you still use the singular verb. "Are necessary" is just retarded. |
exactly
| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
| 2) I would take out the verb all together, ie. "no more strict than necessary." That would be a more normal usage. Sounds like it was written like a Korean, otherwise. |
That works too - but the original omission is pretty common, as you'll see in a simple google usage search. |
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kimchi story
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
1) It has to be A). The sentence should read "...than it is necessary for them to be" but the subject there is implied and uses the indicator "it" so you still use the singular verb. "Are necessary" is just retarded.
2) I would take out the verb all together, ie. "no more strict than necessary." That would be a more normal usage. Sounds like it was written like a Korean, otherwise. |
Seconded with nothing to add.
(ddeuble - you got me thinking and I haven't come to a conclusion yet. Post again if you come to one, please.) |
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Been There, Taught That
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Mungyeong: not a village, not yet a metroplex.
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I definitely agree with the "is" theory, and the "eliminate the 'is'" theory, too.
Alternatively, a positively-worded sentence is always good:...only as strict as necessary" to paraphrase. |
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tzechuk
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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ilovebdt:
the *is* refers to a situation or a system or a circumstance.
So rewriting it would be:
The situation does not require the standards to be stricter than necessary.
Or
The system does not require the standards to be stricter than necessary. |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| tzechuk wrote: |
ilovebdt:
the *is* refers to a situation or a system or a circumstance.
So rewriting it would be:
The situation does not require the standards to be stricter than necessary.
Or
The system does not require the standards to be stricter than necessary. |
Precisely - it's a passive construction, in which it's common to lose the subject. To make it active again, you need to supply one. |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Got ya! Cheers people 
My co-worker is now happy.
ilovebdt |
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