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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| I was just saying that simply embracing ESL doesn't make someone multicultural. |
I agree, but the impact of Western culture has been a lot more substantial then just ESL. Compare much of Asia with Asia from 50 years ago. Religion, holidays, clothes, mannerisms, food, and entertainment have all been substantially impacted. Now compare that with the changes made to Western society due to non-Western influences. Which culture has been altered more? Consider that one third of Koreans are Christian. That's substantial Western influence.
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Yeah, I take your point about Christianity. A couple of counterpoints, though...
Think about a 50 year old Korean Catholic who has never lived outside Korea. Now, think about a 50 year old American atheist ESL teacher. Now, imagine a fresh-off-the-boat American Catholic who has arrived here to teach ESL, without having much prior contact with Korean Catholics. Dollars to donuts, the American Catholic is going to feel more comfortable, in terms of shared cultural references and behavioral expectations, socializing and talking with the American atheist than he is with the Korean Catholic. Obviously, that might change over time, if and when the American Catholic develops deeper and more nuanced relations with his Korean co-religionists. However, all else being equal, broader cultural considerations are likely to trump sectarian affinities.
Furthermore, it's interesting to note that the rise of Christianity in Korea took place during the same period of time that Christianity was in decline everywhere in the west, outside of maybe the US bible belt. So if it was a question of Koreans being influenced by what was happening in western culture, you have to wonder why western culture was being influenced in the opposite direction.
Off the top of my head, the only western holiday that I can think of as being adopted en masse in Korea is Christmas. And even there, the similarities seem rather superficial. From what I'm taken to understand, many older people don't even bother with it(except maybe as an opportunity to give a few gifts to their kids), and it seems to be most popular with the young, who use it as an excuse to get together with other young people. This contrasts quite dramatically with Christmas in the west, where it is the family holiday par excellente. (Obviously, it probably has more meaning for Korean Christians, though I doubt that even they attach the same degree of social, as opposed to religious, significance to the holiday as westerners do.) |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I agree, but the impact of Western culture has been a lot more substantial then just ESL. Compare much of Asia with Asia from 50 years ago. Religion, holidays, clothes, mannerisms, food, and entertainment have all been substantially impacted. Now compare that with the changes made to Western society due to non-Western influences. Which culture has been altered more? Consider that one third of Koreans are Christian. That's substantial Western influence. |
Yes, Korea has been affected by Western influences, but it is certainly not multicultural, and does not have to deal with any of the problems that affect multicultural countries, and you are mixing up the debate on 'multiculturalism' by talking about the effects of globalisation on essentially monoethnic, monocultural societies. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Yes, Korea has been affected by Western influences, but it is certainly not multicultural, and does not have to deal with any of the problems that affect multicultural countries, and you are mixing up the debate on 'multiculturalism' by talking about the effects of globalisation on essentially monoethnic, monocultural societies. |
What's the difference? As far as I can tell, multiculturalism is when Western countries are affected by non-Western cultures. Globalization is when non-Western countries are affected by Western cultures. The only difference I see is that multiculturalism is more grass roots, people based, whereas globalization is a high-level industrial campaign. I think you could make an argument that both are equally bad - the latter is certainly a key factor in driving Mexicans out of Mexico and into the US.
Just to clarify, what exactly do you consider an "unassimilable culture"? And why?
Lastly, I wouldn't consider the monoethnic culture of Korea something to revere either. Have you ever been to Ansan? Best place in Korea. Others seem to agree.
cached here, original doesn't seem to be available.
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| The area is giving Ansan, an otherwise monotonous industrial city, a fresh new face with a multicultural vibrancy rarely found elsewhere in Korea, a country not exactly known for ethnic diversity. |
Finally, where would you rather spend the rest of your life? In a monoethnic country like Korea or in a multicultural country like the US? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| However, all else being equal, broader cultural considerations are likely to trump sectarian affinities. |
Of course religion isn't the only component of culture, but it can be a rather significant factor. Do you think the Mormon missionaries hang out with the English speaking booze hounds or Korean Mormons?
I have a point to this, but I'll wait until bigverne answers my question about "unassimilable culture" so as I don't make any unfounded assumptions.
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| So if it was a question of Koreans being influenced by what was happening in western culture, you have to wonder why western culture was being influenced in the opposite direction. |
I'm not quite sure which way the question is pointed. Are you questioning the substantive influence of the west on Korea's religion or are you questioning the influence on the wests move away from religion?
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| Off the top of my head, the only western holiday that I can think of as being adopted en masse in Korea is Christmas. |
Yes. That's pretty much it. Solar New Year, to some degree as well. But could you imagine the firestorm if the US tried to adopt Buddha's Birthday as a holiday? Or Eid-al-Fitr? The conservative pundits would be laying every ounce of blame on multiculturalists. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| What's the difference? As far as I can tell, multiculturalism is when Western countries are affected by non-Western cultures. |
No, multiculturalism is experienced by Western and non-Western countries alike and it occurs when a number of ethnic, cultural, and religious groups share the same political space. Examples are Indonesia, the US, Bosnia, and India.
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| Globalization is when non-Western countries are affected by Western cultures. |
Globalisation affects all countries, whether it be mass immigration to Europe or the growth of Western franchise restaurants in Korea. I have never heard anyone define multiculturalism and globalisation as you have just defined them.
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| Just to clarify, what exactly do you consider an "unassimilable culture"? And why? |
Imagine importing people from the most conservative, backward parts of rural Pakistan or Bangladesh into working class Northern England. From examples all over Europe, it is clear that most Muslims have a very difficult time assimilating, just as Western Europeans would have in integrating into Muslim culture. It seems to make very little sense continuing this disastrous policy.
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| Lastly, I wouldn't consider the monoethnic culture of Korea something to revere either. Have you ever been to Ansan? Best place in Korea. Others seem to agree. |
I never said I did revere Korea's monoethnic culture, but I believe that multiculturalism, as a government policy is woefully misguided, idealistic nonsense. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just to clarify, what exactly do you consider an "unassimilable culture"? And why? |
Imagine importing people from the most conservative, backward parts of rural Pakistan or Bangladesh into working class Northern England. From examples all over Europe, it is clear that most Muslims have a very difficult time assimilating, just as Western Europeans would have in integrating into Muslim culture. It seems to make very little sense continuing this disastrous policy. |
So what exactly does it mean to "assimilate"? And why can't some cultures "assimilate"? Is it their language? Their religion? Their clothes? Their skin color?
Most immigrant groups take time to fully "assimilate"...
...while some never do.
What's do different about this wave of immigrants? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| What's do different about this wave of immigrants? |
Taking Muslim immigration to the UK as an example. It is larger in scale, and the cultural differences are so great as to make assimilation or integration virtually impossible. You give the example of Irish immigrants, who were initially greeted with much discrimination, yet within a generation had intermarried and came to be almost indistinguishable from the host population. The intermarriage rates for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are tiny, even for the second generation (with many marrying their first cousins), and the government policy of multiculturalism, which was not in place for previous waves of immigrants (who were merely expected to become British) actively encourages them to keep their own culture and places very little emphasis on them integrating into the host society. When you couple this together with very high birth rates, facilitated by the importing of spouses from the sub-continent, you have the development of entirely self-contained, self-perpetuating immigrant communities who live in the UK, but who have very little loyalty or cultural connection to the rest of society.
You state that some immigrant groups never assimilate, and that is true. That isn't such a problem, when such immigrant groups are small, as in the case of the Amish or Orthodox Jews. However, when you have unassimilated groups that make up a large and growing percentage of the population, it is a recipe for serious social strife. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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So if it was a question of Koreans being influenced by what was happening in western culture, you have to wonder why western culture was being influenced in the opposite direction.
I'm not quite sure which way the question is pointed. Are you questioning the substantive influence of the west on Korea's religion or are you questioning the influence on the wests move away from religion?
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I guess what I was trying to say was that at this point most Koreans who become or remain Christians do so because of influence from other Koreans, not from western culture. Yes, Christianity originally came from the west, but it's become domesticated to such a degree that Korean converts aren't really embracing western culture simply by converting.
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Do you think the Mormon missionaries hang out with the English speaking booze hounds or Korean Mormons?
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That's a bit of a rigged example, because most Mormons would probably prefer to hang out with teetotallers, regardless of the teetotallers' religion or culture. And "booze hounds" are hardly unique to western culture. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| What's do different about this wave of immigrants? |
Taking Muslim immigration to the UK as an example. |
Ok, now take Muslims in America.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007151
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| The Zogby survey found that 59% of American Muslims have at least an undergraduate education, making them the most highly educated group in America. Muslim Americans are also the richest Muslim community in the world, with four in five earning more than $25,000 a year and one in three more than $75,000. They tend to be employed in professional fields, and most own stock, either personally or through 401(k) or pension plans. In terms of civic participation, 82% are registered to vote, half of them as Democrats. Interestingly, however, the survey found that 65% of Muslim Americans favor lowering the income tax. |
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In these respects, Muslim Americans differ from Muslim communities in Britain and Continental Europe, which tend to be poor and socially marginalized. Four other features set American Muslims apart.
First, unlike in Europe the overwhelming majority of Muslims arrived here legally, and many of those who didn't were deported after Sept. 11, 2001. Currently, according to Ali Al-Ahmed of the Washington-based Saudi Institute, there are probably no more than a few thousand Muslim illegal immigrants in the U.S.
Second, 21% of Muslim Americans intermarry, according to the 2001 Religious Identification Survey of the City University of New York--close to the national rate of 22% of Americans who marry outside their religion. And because 64% of Muslim Americans are foreign born, there is reason to expect that figure to grow among second and third generations.
Third, according to Ishan Bagby, a professor at the University of Kentucky who recently made a study of mosque attendance in Detroit, the average mosque-goer is 34 years old, married with children, has at least a bachelor's degree, and earns about $74,000 a year. If this is representative of Muslim Americans as a whole, it suggests that the religiously committed among them hardly fit the profile of the alienated, angry young Muslim men so common today in Europe.
Finally, Muslim Americans benefit from leaders who, despite some notable exceptions, are generally more responsible than Muslim leaders in Britain and Europe. Just compare the forthright condemnations of terrorism by the Los Angeles-based Muslim Public Affairs Council to the cunningly ambiguous utterances of France's Tariq Ramadan, to say nothing of the openly jihadist positions of some of Britain's most notorious imams. |
It sounds to me like Muslims in America are successfully "assimilating." Education, civic involvement, and intermarriage have all been tackled. Thus the problem isn't inherently Muslims trying to interact with Western culture. It's the specific Muslims that Britain and Europe import and their specific policies that cause disenfranchisement.
If you want to call multiculturalism the specific policies of Britain and Europe, then yes, it is a problem. If you want to call multiculturalism the inclusion of different cultures from around the world, then yes, it can work. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
I guess what I was trying to say was that at this point most Koreans who become or remain Christians do so because of influence from other Koreans, not from western culture. Yes, Christianity originally came from the west, but it's become domesticated to such a degree that Korean converts aren't really embracing western culture simply by converting. |
Could be. But I'd still consider Christianity a part of Western culture. Even if the adherents aren't consciously seeking Westernization. Wearing a suit is another example. It's not prima facie evidence of Western culture, but its roots are in the West. If American businessmen started wearing turbans, I'd bet those same dollars to donuts that they'd be accused of multicultural kowtowing.
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Do you think the Mormon missionaries hang out with the English speaking booze hounds or Korean Mormons?
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That's a bit of a rigged example, because most Mormons would probably prefer to hang out with teetotallers, regardless of the teetotallers' religion or culture. And "booze hounds" are hardly unique to western culture. |
Well, I'd guess the Mormons would still prefer to hang out with other Mormons. But it's just an example of where cultures are already less homogeneous than many people consider them to be. |
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