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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Ending Pregnancy when Down Syndrome is Diagnosed |
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| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
| If you were given the diagnosis while pregnant or your significant other found out that she was carrying a Down Syndrom baby, would you carry it to term? |
Okay, going back to the OP and those bolded stipulations, I would have the child, if having a child were something important to me.
Thankfully, my llife has worked out so that there is no possibility for any offspring, short of a gay miracle.
That is, I am not one of those gay people who wishes to adopt.
If I were, though, I would probably think seriously about adopting a Downs child, now that the question has been raised. if only because the need of such a child is greater, the loving dividends of raising it are greater, and the likelihood of some other potential parent taking it on far more dim.
Yeah, I'm a sucker for someone who needs and adores me. Were I the type of person who needed to parent, I would indeed choose to parent a Downs child, if that choice came my way. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| ...what about this hypothetical situation...? |
Do not know, Mindmetoo.
I am confident that I have articulated my views on these issues already, however. In short, I would not play God or support anyone else's playing God either. I have a great deal of questions that those who propose the type of ops you suggest here and a host of related others -- cloning, for example -- do not seem to be reflecting upon too much.
Just because we can do something does not mean it necessarily follows that we should. As far as I am aware, only Oppenheimer asked such questions when the American govt created the hydrogen bomb.
And to clarify: I call for suspending judgment on these problems and reconsidering all of our presuppositions and assumptions before acting one way or the other. Intensified circumspection and walking and thinking -- rather than running and leaping without looking, so to speak. But I do not reject any of these proposals per se.
Would you correct Mozart or Nietzsche's insanity in the womb, Mindmetoo? How about Beethoven or Hawking's conditions? What about all of the other "problems" some might wish to eradicate? Homosexuality and "personality disorders," for example. How would all of this affect humanity in the long run? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Would you correct Mozart or Nietzsche's insanity in the womb, Mindmetoo? |
Was Mozart insane? He was pretty loopy in later life but the girl in my front row who twitches might either be genetically loopy or the product of crazed parents. Environment sure can make people loopy. Mozart would seem to be a prime example.
That aside, your assumption here is their insanity and genius are related. There are a lot of fairly sane people who are geniuses. I don't know if the ranks of the Nobel laureates are over represented by nut bags. Who is to say if you correct for insanity you will then strip away genius?
| Quote: |
| How about Beethoven or Hawking's conditions? |
Besides deafness what was Beethoven's problem? Hawking has stated if wasn't for his ALS he probably would have been a poon hound and never did what he did. But then would you use that as a justification for not developing a post-birth treatment for ALS? Of course not. The random chance we'll get another Hawking is not worth the lives ruined. And what about the contributions that could have been made by people who have not been struck down by ALS? And would having no Hawking be such a big loss in the first place? He's not won a nobel prize.
All that aside, let me make the key argument the money we would save treating and managing retardation and genetic disorders would go a much longer way to benefiting society than the random prodigies that may emerge as a fellow traveler of genetic diseases and disorders.
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| What about all of the other "problems" some might wish to eradicate? Homosexuality and "personality disorders," for example. How would all of this affect humanity in the long run? |
We then fall back on individual choice. In womb or outside of the womb, people still do a lot to change and eradicate such "problems". How would it affect humanity in the long run? How would cars or airplanes or nuclear technology affect humans in the long run? Personal and societal ethics have adapted for all new technologies, even those with the awesome power to destroy us all. This would be no different. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| How would it affect humanity in the long run...? This would be no different. |
I think it would make huge differences. It would -- for better or for worse -- reduce human diversity based on one socially-constructed ideal prototype or another.
I agree with you that this should be a matter of individual choice -- parents, family, counselors including religious counselors if that is your case, whatever. I would not intervene in anyone else's choice on these matters in any way whatsoever.
I reiterate that I merely offer my views here where my (and yours and others') views have been solicited. I think this issue features extremely complex problems -- moral, ethical, what-have-you. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
I think it would make huge differences. It would -- for better or for worse -- reduce human diversity based on one socially-constructed ideal prototype or another.
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There's no doubt it would make a huge difference. But we're always using reproduction in response to socially constructed ideals. Condoms were a piece of technology we invented long ago to accomplish that. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: ... |
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Is there a connection between genious, insanity, and down's syndrome?
I don't think so.
Were your baby to be diagnosed with Down's, I don't think you'd expect them to compose "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik".
Still a tough question, but not helped by mischaracterization. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| ...I don't think you'd expect them to compose "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik." |
I do not think one would expect them to star in a hit television series or author a New-York-Times-bestselling autobiography, either.
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
Abort, if not for medical science and modern "morals" that baby (assuming it survived the pregnancy) would be left to die on the side of a mountain 500 years ago.
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500 years ago we didn't have the Geneva Conventions and it was okay to torture the enemy. Are you advocating that we go back to that stage in warfare as well? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| I do not think one would expect them to star in a hit television series or author a New-York-Times-bestselling autobiography, either. |
Yes, his portrayal of a teenager suffering from Down's syndrome was quite convincing. Genious, even. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I do not think one would expect them to star in a hit television series or author a New-York-Times-bestselling autobiography, either. |
Yes, his portrayal of a teenager suffering from Down's syndrome was quite convincing. Genious, even. |
It's a bit like how great Korean actors are good at playing soldiers. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| This is approaching EFL who claims I should be trying to follow what he is saying in other threads instead of asking him to explain his position. |
Don't whine. If you are going to comment on a thread, you *should* know what you're talking about. Besides, that is not at all what I said to you. I said you should go find the info.
Now, you are wrong here. Man up. (Egad, you've got me agreeing with gopher again.) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...I don't think you'd expect them to compose "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik." |
I do not think one would expect them to star in a hit television series or author a New-York-Times-bestselling autobiography, either.
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Hmmm... are there Idiot Savant Down's folk? I agree with the basic point, but the ability of the person in the example you chose does not rise to genius. Further, the chance he wrote a best-seller on his own is remote. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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The govt should stay out of the bedroom and the birthing room.....
DD |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...I don't think you'd expect them to compose "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik." |
I do not think one would expect them to star in a hit television series or author a New-York-Times-bestselling autobiography, either.
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Hmmm... are there Idiot Savant Down's folk? I agree with the basic point, but the ability of the person in the example you chose does not rise to genius. Further, the chance he wrote a best-seller on his own is remote. |
It's a great example and only shows that we shouldn't dictate whether they live through our limited vision. Not only have down's children gone on to do great exploits in the world, but they have also gone on to be loveable, kind and generous. Traits not often seen and obviously not highly esteemed in a world so tarnished by discrimination.
OH, I would think that being a product of discrimination that you would champagne the cause of those who are being discriminated against? |
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