|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
|
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| BJWD wrote: |
I'm not saying muslims should be excluded from the labour force, or lose the right to vote.
My position is that being a young muslim man is part of the profile of a terrorist. It isn't the only part, but it is an important part.
Taken to the real world.. If a muslim man from saudi signs up for flight school in Arizona and pays in cash, should the FBI give him a good once-over? I would say yes. A big YES, in fact. That is 4 flags right there. This is not unreasonable.
A 60 year old woman named ali isn't likely to fly a plane into a building. She can be treated normally by the border police. |
The point I am making is about the actions of the border patrol. Once again, if the guy did something wrong at the border besides having a name change to reflect his religious beliefs, then I wouldn't be in this thread. He has been repeatedly detained despite the fact that he has family across the border and travels with his wife and children. I think it's interesting that they focus on him and not on his wife. I mean why just limit it to men since women have been known to participate in terrorist activity. There was even that bombing with the husband and wife duo....maybe it was in Saudi Arabia or Syria last year perhaps....
I just don't like how this line is being drawn.
Young Muslim man doing something suspicious within the confines of the United States seems like a good reason for the FBI to be called in but some guy crossing the border who was determined to not be a risk shouldn't have to deal with this crap.
All I'm saying is that the border patrol obviously does not have its act together if they continue to waste time on a man who is of no danger to the U.S. government. I mean think about it, how many terrorists go so far as to write a letter to the government requesting to have their name removed from a terrorism or high risk list?
from the article
| Quote: |
Thank you for your recent letter, in which you expressed your concern regarding difficulties that you have experienced during U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) processing,� she wrote. �We have recently completed our review of this matter. Based on the information you provided and our research into the issues you raise, records have been modified where appropriate.�
Meanwhile, Reed keeps getting hassled.
The third time was in mid-March.....
On April 29, Reed says he was detained again.... |
If this was taken cared of properly, this would not have been a story for us to debate about. How can I have faith in this system to protect me when they can't even update their records to reflect what is happening in a timely manner? I mean, these inept fools patrol the U.S. border....  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alyallen wrote: |
| As I said, personal rant. Quite aware of the quite ridiculous vagueness of racial terms but it's still true. white supremacist Christians would be white....there is no confusion there. Muslims would be ? what exactly? |
Muslim. Thats why this MUSLIM was treated the way he was. Nothing to do with his look but the violent sets of ideas he believes in. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| My position is that being a young muslim man is part of the profile of a terrorist. It isn't the only part, but it is an important part. |
Being a middle aged Christian white guy in Montana is part of the profile of a domestic Christian Identity terrorist. Being a white unemployed hippy in California is part of the profile of being an Earth First terrorist. Being a black guy from LA fits the profile of a gang member. Being an Italian from New York fits the profile of a mafia member. So what? Is an LA citizen more at threat from a gang member or a terrorist? Is a small time judge trying to enforce a lien in Montana more at danger from a terrorist or a radical in the Christian Identity movement?
Last edited by mindmetoo on Tue May 15, 2007 5:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| How can I have faith in this system to protect me when they can't even update their records to reflect what is happening in a timely manner? I mean, these inept fools patrol the U.S. border.... |
Aly,
I don't think it is just the system and I disagree with saying and qualifying that this is only a "lack of rules and regulations".
This might have been the case prior to 9/11. But unfortunately the path taken by the U.S. government was to instill fear and to promote low level hatred and suspicion of Muslims of all sorts. Terrible strategy and this strategy of "the other" has slowly perculated down to the common folk who go about their day in the usual ways.
These immigration/border officials were not just doing their official duty. They were reflecting a strong, personal anti-Muslim bigotry (probably not even known by these men). Laws are enforced by people and their own biases come very much into play.
I accuse the Bush administration of allowing this to happen. By not promoting reconcilliation, understanding but instead promoting suspicion and gross stereotypes which have just furthered and fuel the intentions of these "terrorists". The skewed news reporting, also so irresponsible, has furthered this without any government program of "dialogue".
Let's face it, there are very few terrorists in the world. Very few. The U.S. govt did not do the mature and thoughtful thing but instead went down the road of revenge and paranoia. Look at the similiar responses to the terror of the late 19th century and in particular in the U.S. after McKinley's assassination. The similiar reaction against "anarchists" whoever they were?????? so many innocent lives destroyed because of suspicion, dress, whisper, at that time. Still going on now, scapegoating.
DD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ddeubel, I personally view the Bush Administration to be similar to a Middle Eastern government since it uses religion to advance its agenda, and the leader invokes God and religion and then goes to war and claims he has a sanction of a higher being. I have a serious problem with that.
Those who have studied history remember King Phillip of Spain thought God was on his side when he sent the Spanish Armada. The Bush Administration did not do enough (except late in the game) to promote dialogue, work with allies etc.... That was bad business and opposite of his father's style. He has more of his father's style in politics only when his term is over, and he was pressured to do so. It is kind of ironic how the Bush Administration was embarassed by the Dubai Ports issue. They couldn't understand the hysteria against the Arabs as owners. After all they were partially responsible for the environment in which the deal was rejected. I believe Dubai Ports, in the end, got something in the U.S.
Don't quote me on that.
As far as this fellow, the government is showing serious incompetence if they can't take a guy off some dumb list. He may have converted to Islam after marrying his Muslim wife, which is normal, but he is still the man who served his country, not a criminal or terrorist. Recently, a professor was barred from entry, because he wrote a paper in the 1960s
about the use of LSD. This was about 40 years ago, and it was about a friend who quoted him. Some guy at the border made some random internet search and asked Mr. Feldmar if he was the same man mentioned on the internet by that other guy. He said yes and the Canadian professor was barred entry over a paper where he talked about drug use 40 years ago. It is extremely dumb considering almost half the American population has tried an illegal substance at some point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| They were reflecting a strong, personal anti-Muslim bigotry |
If you had any idea about what islam is, and what many muslims actually believe, you would be bigoted of that arrogant, supremacist and homicidal "religion" too.
If neo-nazis were the threat we would focus our attention on neo-nazis. islam is no different. "radical" muslims are qualitatively no different from neo-nazis. They are both supremacist, totalitarian ideologies. "radical" muslims are right-wing extremists.
My rant above is directly related to this topic. The greatest security threat is from radical muslims. So, we must focus our security services upon them. If it were Jesus-freak abortion Dr. killers that were flying planes into buildings and blowing up buses, I'd be railing just as hard against them and I would be advocating keeping crazy jesus types under close watch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How can I have faith in this system to protect me when they can't even update their records to reflect what is happening in a timely manner? I mean, these inept fools patrol the U.S. border.... |
Aly,
I don't think it is just the system and I disagree with saying and qualifying that this is only a "lack of rules and regulations".
This might have been the case prior to 9/11. But unfortunately the path taken by the U.S. government was to instill fear and to promote low level hatred and suspicion of Muslims of all sorts. Terrible strategy and this strategy of "the other" has slowly perculated down to the common folk who go about their day in the usual ways.
These immigration/border officials were not just doing their official duty. They were reflecting a strong, personal anti-Muslim bigotry (probably not even known by these men). Laws are enforced by people and their own biases come very much into play.
I accuse the Bush administration of allowing this to happen. By not promoting reconcilliation, understanding but instead promoting suspicion and gross stereotypes which have just furthered and fuel the intentions of these "terrorists". The skewed news reporting, also so irresponsible, has furthered this without any government program of "dialogue".
Let's face it, there are very few terrorists in the world. Very few. The U.S. govt did not do the mature and thoughtful thing but instead went down the road of revenge and paranoia. Look at the similiar responses to the terror of the late 19th century and in particular in the U.S. after McKinley's assassination. The similiar reaction against "anarchists" whoever they were?????? so many innocent lives destroyed because of suspicion, dress, whisper, at that time. Still going on now, scapegoating.
DD |
not that I disagree with you but my focus is on the article and the facts that revolve around it. Discussions here on Dave's tend to get bogged down (at least in my opinion) by personal bile while I'd rather keep things limited to the issue at hand (excluding my rant which I clearly labeled as such).
The issue of this article to me comes down to the ineptness of the border patrol in updating their records in a timely manner. There's no need to disenfranchise a Muslim man over a stupid clerical error. How this sort of response frames the Bush administration is irrelevant to me and simply will lead the thread further and further astray....
But of course this is all my personal opinion.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| not that I disagree with you but my focus is on the article and the facts that revolve around it. Discussions here on Dave's tend to get bogged down (at least in my opinion) by personal bile while I'd rather keep things limited to the issue at hand (excluding my rant which I clearly labeled as such). |
That's fair enough and I buy that....
I just finished watching a program from the U.K. on Tony Blair. One British woman made the astute comment that she found it incredible, what happened after 9/11. first in America and then more and more in Britain. After 1973 when the IRA started bombing with a vengence, people didn't think all Irish/catholics as kooks, crazies, less human. The British government didn't start treating the Irish any differently on the streets of London. NO. People and law enforcement focused on the "crazies" who took this route and knew it was a small group of people. they fought a battle of hearts and minds, not one of draconian security measures against all "Irish".
Now contrast that with Muslims. Vilified because of the exact same thing. One comes to the only possible conclusion. That the Bush administration pushed this spirit, fed this spirit and promoted this spirit of blankly labeling a whole swath of human kind. They rejected the road of communication, dialogue, understanding. So the conclusion is, the one and only one. Racism. Pure and simple. Hasn't left us and never will. This is the guise here. Everyone saying it is a "security issue" doesn't understand you don't catch terrorists in such clumsy ways as harrassing people. They also don't understand even their own dormant but brewing racism...
DD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You act like violence from them is new. It isn't. From day 1, muslims have been waging war on kuffar. This is not new. It will not end with us being tolerant or kind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| Quote: |
| They were reflecting a strong, personal anti-Muslim bigotry |
If you had any idea about what islam is, and what many muslims actually believe, you would be bigoted of that arrogant, supremacist and homicidal "religion" too.
If neo-nazis were the threat we would focus our attention on neo-nazis. islam is no different. "radical" muslims are qualitatively no different from neo-nazis. They are both supremacist, totalitarian ideologies. "radical" muslims are right-wing extremists.
My rant above is directly related to this topic. The greatest security threat is from radical muslims. So, we must focus our security services upon them. If it were Jesus-freak abortion Dr. killers that were flying planes into buildings and blowing up buses, I'd be railing just as hard against them and I would be advocating keeping crazy jesus types under close watch. |
There is nothing wrong with checking for radical Muslims, but this former serviceman who converted to Islam hasn't been convicted of anything, there is no evidence on him for anything, so there is a danger of persecuting someone based on the actions of some among his confessional group. Guilt by association several times doesn't make sense when you want proper security and respect a citizens civil rights.
I didn't see any evidence that he was a radical. I am all for monitoring any kind of radical whether it is a militaman, a bearded Muslim fanatic, spies from Russia or Israel or whatever, but not what happened according to the author of the article. There is a difference. Civil rights are important, not just security. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Keepongoing
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: they r a-holes |
|
|
| i am white and remember coming from Vancouver into the States. I am from Washington State and I was treated horribly. They questioned me about everything. My friends in Canada warned me that it would probably happen and it did big time. They wanted all details and challenged me on simple things like family and friends. I have speoken to others who were treated the same way. These Custom guys are trained to be a-holes to everybody. We have a student, girl, who went to the States to visitand was strip searched at the airport. Obviously here desire to the return to the States is "0". I have traveled to 33 countires and no where have I been treated worse by customs than in the US. These customs ppl are jerks and and are helping Bush to make more and more ppl dislike us |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: they r a-holes |
|
|
| Keepongoing wrote: |
| i am white and remember coming from Vancouver into the States. I am from Washington State and I was treated horribly. They questioned me about everything. My friends in Canada warned me that it would probably happen and it did big time. They wanted all details and challenged me on simple things like family and friends. I have speoken to others who were treated the same way. These Custom guys are trained to be a-holes to everybody. We have a student, girl, who went to the States to visitand was strip searched at the airport. Obviously here desire to the return to the States is "0". I have traveled to 33 countires and no where have I been treated worse by customs than in the US. These customs ppl are jerks and and are helping Bush to make more and more ppl dislike us |
I think I know how to talk to Custom's people with no problem. I never had any problems post 9/11 with a border agent being a problem, but, then again, I only used the airports. And, anything I've written on the internent, has been moderate since I am moderate. I know they have a job to do. I never had problems with people at a border place ever including Israel. I remember when I was missing an important paper to show the Israeli guard, but I talked the soldier into overlooking it, because I had another one showing that I just obviously lost the other one, and he talked to the lady guard to just be cool and let me through.
However, I have heard of Left type Canadians getting harassed and these are non-Muslim white Canadians. I think the Bush Administration has been overzealous in its ways. I understand they want to protect America, but it seems too often they are throwing the baby with the bath water. So I agree with the poster who said the government is being inept which is leading to the abuse of an American citizen's civil rights.
The fellow shouldn't have to return to his previous Christian name just to be treated like an American who is innocent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
|
| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wealthy, straight, white Christian men will never be profiled. Which is odd, really, when one considers that by far, the vast majority of destruction brought upon this planet has been by wealthy, straight, white Christian men. And then they tune into Fox News and learn how the poor, the gays, the Muslims, the 'ethnics' are all coming to kill them and steal their daughters.
Murder is murder is murder. Maybe South East Asian, African, Latin American and Middle Eastern countries should start detaining Americans at their borders. Too bad, America was once a great country (and hopefully it can find its way again).
No one's going to change anyone's mind here. Someone who has never suffered from bigotry will never understand what it feels like. A post on an ESL board ain't going to change thousands of years of strife. Today its the Muslims, yesterday it was the Communists. Tomorrow maybe it'll be the blacks again. Or the gays. One thing's for sure. It ain't gonna be the wealthy, straight, white christian men. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
|
| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| All I'm saying is that the border patrol obviously does not have its act together if they continue to waste time on a man who is of no danger to the U.S. government. I mean think about it, how many terrorists go so far as to write a letter to the government requesting to have their name removed from a terrorism or high risk list? |
I'm quoting myself (A first!) if only to show how ridiculous the border patrol is. For those who haven't followed the news, an Atlanta lawyer with TB went globe trotting around the world. He found out while in Europe that he has Drug resistant TB and shouldn't travel but travel he did...Into Canada and then crossed the border into the U.S.
Despite a computer warning that popped up when his name went into the computer, the border patrol agent let the guy in. Grill a Muslim guy for hours...No problem. Follow the warning that pops up on a computer...impossible 
| Quote: |
Border worker disregarded TB warning
By GREG BLUESTEIN and DEVLIN BARRETT, Associated Press Writers
ATLANTA - A globe-trotting Atlanta lawyer with a dangerous strain of tuberculosis was allowed back into the U.S. by a border inspector who disregarded a computer warning to stop him and don protective gear, officials said Thursday.
The inspector has been removed from border duty.
The unidentified inspector explained that he was no doctor but that the infected man seemed perfectly healthy and that he thought the warning was merely "discretionary," officials briefed on the case told The Associated Press. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the matter is still under investigation. |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070601/ap_on_re_us/tuberculosis_infection;_ylt=AkbWiuUE2GUgHvtLVQqUWbVvzwcF |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
