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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
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| Besides kvetching on Dave's, what are you doing to change the thinking? |
Well, I'm working on this amusing graphic novel about how the Jews control the American media and the global banking system. When it's ready, I'll send you a copy. |
So, nothing? If I recall, migrant workers to Korea wanted to improve their rights and protections in Korea. So they staged sit-ins and were beaten by police. But eventually they won the right to unionize and won the right to injury compensation etc. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm just wondering what you have tried to do? I mean, how have you pushed to get in to Korea and be more than what you claim you are?
Seeing as you desire it so badly, I can assume you are by now fluent in Korean, have an advanced education (MA or above in relevant field), work at a University, have a vast network of connections, attend Korean social/business/institutional functions that allow you to connect with people who may be able to assist you...you have done all of this, right?
I would say that if you earnestly tried these things, you could easily rise in both social stature and wage. Sure, you will never be a Korean, but it doesn't sound like thats what you are after. Wink If you did try so hard and failed, I could understand some sour grapes, but something tells me otherwise.
Just a hunch though. |
Actually, I'd rather die. I'm just saying that theories of racial purity belong to another era.
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So, nothing? If I recall, migrant workers to Korea wanted to improve their rights and protections in Korea. So they staged sit-ins and were beaten by police. But eventually they won the right to unionize and won the right to injury compensation etc. |
Wow. What heroes. They're desperate. I just pity the Koreans. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Pyong...if you are doing nothing to change what you see as racism or prejudice then what you are doing is just whining like a child...sorry.
Crap or get off the pot man.
As for racial purity...it does exist as a belief with some Koreans. It does not however mean that all or even the majority of Koreans believe this. I have met some idiots who do...but many more who do not.
As for non-dual citizenship...thats a national policy that can de debated. It also exists in many other nations. However not granting dual nationality may not be all about racism.
As for you never being more than a Foreigner here...that might be true but pyong it takes two people to dance. You seem to have no intention of adapting or trying to understand local customs..so why on gods green earth would Koreans try to adapt and undertstand you?
You talk about being accepted here (it seems to be implied) but why is that so important to you?
Pay may be lower for some foreign teachers (but many of those have limited qualifications (ex: a B.A. in anything) and little or no experience. If you stay here and improve yourself (credentials and experience) your pay can rise as well as your conditions. I do not know what this illusion is that people have about teaching and promotions.
Take a high school teacher back in Canada. He or she needs a B.A. along with a Teachers liscence (Teachers College). He can become permanent (part of the union) and then goes on a 12 year pay scale after which he tops off. There are no "promotions" to speak of unless that teacher wishes to move into management (school admin).
A teacher in Korea operates in a free market economy where salary is determined by negociation and therefore leverage (bargaining power). Two different realities.
As for promotions...what do you want pyong? You want to be paid the same as a Korean teacher doing your job? Well..then get comparable qualifications before you piss in pool and cry racism...
You want tenure: get a PHd and publish research in your field of studies....then you would have a legitimate gripe.
You want to be paid and treated the same as a full time Korean Public School teacher?
Get certification and start working like a real teacher: grade, attend teacher-parent conferences, stay after hours to help students prepare for university entrance exams, attend faculty meetings, get involved in the community...then again you would have a legit gripe.
If you sit behind your contract and do the mininum then you have nothing to complain about...all you are doing in pissing in the wind and whining like a spiled child. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Pyong...if you are doing nothing to change what you see as racism or prejudice then what you are doing is just whining like a child...sorry.
Crap or get off the pot man.
As for racial purity...it does exist as a belief with some Koreans. It does not however mean that all or even the majority of Koreans believe this. I have met some idiots who do...but many more who do not.
As for non-dual citizenship...thats a national policy that can de debated. It also exists in many other nations. However not granting dual nationality may not be all about racism.
As for you never being more than a Foreigner here...that might be true but pyong it takes two people to dance. You seem to have no intention of adapting or trying to understand local customs..so why on gods green earth would Koreans try to adapt and undertstand you?
You talk about being accepted here (it seems to be implied) but why is that so important to you?
Pay may be lower for some foreign teachers (but many of those have limited qualifications (ex: a B.A. in anything) and little or no experience. If you stay here and improve yourself (credentials and experience) your pay can rise as well as your conditions. I do not know what this illusion is that people have about teaching and promotions.
Take a high school teacher back in Canada. He or she needs a B.A. along with a Teachers liscence (Teachers College). He can become permanent (part of the union) and then goes on a 12 year pay scale after which he tops off. There are no "promotions" to speak of unless that teacher wishes to move into management (school admin).
A teacher in Korea operates in a free market economy where salary is determined by negociation and therefore leverage (bargaining power). Two different realities.
As for promotions...what do you want pyong? You want to be paid the same as a Korean teacher doing your job? Well..then get comparable qualifications before you piss in pool and cry racism...
You want tenure: get a PHd and publish research in your field of studies....then you would have a legitimate gripe.
You want to be paid and treated the same as a full time Korean Public School teacher?
Get certification and start working like a real teacher: grade, attend teacher-parent conferences, stay after hours to help students prepare for university entrance exams, attend faculty meetings, get involved in the community...then again you would have a legit gripe.
If you sit behind your contract and do the mininum then you have nothing to complain about...all you are doing in pissing in the wind and whining like a spiled child. |
These arguments of "improve your credentials and see your salary and status rise" sound good in theory, but are largely bogus. The vast majority of schools here at all levels are run like businesses. Having the best teacher available is secondary to paying as little as possible. Why pay this whitey a lot of money when I can pay that fresher and younger whitey much less? |
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Tokki1
Joined: 14 May 2007
Location: The gap between the Korean superiority and inferiority complex
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Dude you're wrong. Sorry.
If you stick with a good school, they will offer you a substantial raise after a year guaranteed.
Also, with connections and a decent resume, you will earn more money after a few years. I don't see how you could argue the opposite. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Tokki1 wrote: |
Dude you're wrong. Sorry.
If you stick with a good school, they will offer you a substantial raise after a year guaranteed.
Also, with connections and a decent resume, you will earn more money after a few years. I don't see how you could argue the opposite. |
Dude.No way. This discussion isnt about your little second year hogwon pay bump. We are talking about long term, compensation parity with Korean counterparts. Even if foreigners became as qualified and dedicated as our Korean peers, we would not see the same compensation.
Go back and read threads about University three year limits and the house cleanings that many unigwons have. |
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Tokki1
Joined: 14 May 2007
Location: The gap between the Korean superiority and inferiority complex
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| beej wrote: |
| Having the best teacher available is secondary to paying as little as possible. Why pay this whitey a lot of money when I can pay that fresher and younger whitey much less? |
Same thing in Canada. I know teachers with masters degrees who are unemployed simply because schools would rather hire someone with a B.A. and pay them less.
At any rate, most long-term ESL instructors in Korea earn wages and benefits comparable to their Korean counterparts (public Korean teachers).
But long long term...I'm not sure about tenure in public schools, though, (and how this affects the salaries and benefits of Korean teachers) and I'd be willing to bet that you're right. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Tokki1 wrote: |
| beej wrote: |
| Having the best teacher available is secondary to paying as little as possible. Why pay this whitey a lot of money when I can pay that fresher and younger whitey much less? |
Same thing in Canada. I know teachers with masters degrees who are unemployed simply because schools would rather hire someone with a B.A. and pay them less.
At any rate, most long-term ESL instructors in Korea earn wages and benefits comparable to their Korean counterparts (public Korean teachers).
But long long term...I'm not sure about tenure in public schools, though, (and how this affects the salaries and benefits of Korean teachers) and I'd be willing to bet that you're right. |
Dont compare the situation to Canada. I doubt that there are thousands of teaching vacancies in Canada as there are in Korea. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Beej,
You base your argument on Hakwons (or so it seems) when in reality teaching here goes far beyond hakwons only. There are many positions where credentials and experience pay big time.
These can be found in various Public School positions, International Schools, Universities, Private Companies....some of the better hakwons also pay a lot more.
However, these jobs are not as easy to find. A teacher needs to network and actively look for them.
But, you can believe what you want to beleive Beej...I am just talking based on my experience and that of many other teachers I have met. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Dude you're wrong. Sorry.
If you stick with a good school, they will offer you a substantial raise after a year guaranteed.
Also, with connections and a decent resume, you will earn more money after a few years. I don't see how you could argue the opposite.
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Because the hogwan industry is so predatory that few "good schools" even exist.  "substantial"?
Tookie- You've NEVER seen a rotten hogwan cheat a good teacher or hire a lame-o illegal teacher because they could pay them less and treat them like crap? NEVER? |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Beej,
You base your argument on Hakwons (or so it seems) when in reality teaching here goes far beyond hakwons only. There are many positions where credentials and experience pay big time.
These can be found in various Public School positions, International Schools, Universities, Private Companies....some of the better hakwons also pay a lot more.
However, these jobs are not as easy to find. A teacher needs to network and actively look for them.
But, you can believe what you want to beleive Beej...I am just talking based on my experience and that of many other teachers I have met. |
Im not basing my arguement on hagwons. I know there are good jobs out there, as I have an excellent one myself.
I thought the issue being discussed was " Can foreign teachers get the same compensation and general respect from universities and public schools as Korean teachers, if those foreign teachers upgrade their credentials and effort."
Can foreigners get tenure at unis, have a guaranteed job until 65 or whatever the public school retirement age is, not have to sit alone in the school during the vacations with no one to teach, get to go on the school funded teacher trips to SE Asia?
I think not. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Beej wrote: |
[Can foreigners get tenure at unis, have a guaranteed job until 65 or whatever the public school retirement age is, not have to sit alone in the school during the vacations with no one to teach, get to go on the school funded teacher trips to SE Asia?
I think not. |
If they go back home they can do all that...excepting the school funded teacher trips (which I have never seen or heard of until now).
Improving your credentials and getting a PhD or even a Master's will improve your marketability back home hugely.
So why don't people here do that? Because they don't have what it takes. They'd rather sit and whine "Oh I speak English therefore I should be paid more." Because that's what it boils down to. They don't have the credentials, they don't publish, they don't do research, and many don't even bother doing a ESL course or two to improve their teaching. The fact that they speak English is the only reason they have a job. Not so the Korean teachers.
We are hired for different reasons. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Beej wrote: |
| I thought the issue being discussed was " Can foreign teachers get the same compensation and general respect from universities and public schools as Korean teachers, if those foreign teachers upgrade their credentials and effort." |
Let's say the answer to that is "no". We all know that. Then the question is what is a person prepared to do to change it? Clearly, migrant workers got a better shake after protest, which at times involved getting beaten by the cops. Of course for a migrant worker, getting beaten on the head in Korea is probably preferable to getting beaten in a factory in Bangladesh.
If you're not actually doing anything to change things, isn't it all so much "the sun is hot in summer! grrrr! wish it wasn't! grrr!"
And since North America is a land of nothing but respect, fair pay, and proper work hours for people with advanced degrees outside of the professions/sciences/engineering, our option is always go back home. Right? |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Beej wrote: |
| I thought the issue being discussed was " Can foreign teachers get the same compensation and general respect from universities and public schools as Korean teachers, if those foreign teachers upgrade their credentials and effort." |
Let's say the answer to that is "no". We all know that. Then the question is what is a person prepared to do to change it? Clearly, migrant workers got a better shake after protest, which at times involved getting beaten by the cops. Of course for a migrant worker, getting beaten on the head in Korea is probably preferable to getting beaten in a factory in Bangladesh.
If you're not actually doing anything to change things, isn't it all so much "the sun is hot in summer! grrrr! wish it wasn't! grrr!"
And since North America is a land of nothing but respect, fair pay, and proper work hours for people with advanced degrees outside of the professions/sciences/engineering, our option is always go back home. Right? |
Did Koreans in Western countries have to get bashed in the head by American cops to get equal treatment under the law?
The best way to change things is to work hard, prove yourself, and become invaluable to your school, things Homer talked about. Yet this doesnt work in korea most of the time because the Koreans dont seem to care about quality of education or experience. Why do Unis fire you after three years? Unis here are businesses. Public schools would rather have the foreigners sit alone in the office all day during vacations to get their money's worth, rather then let them take the time off like the Korean teachers. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Did Koreans in Western countries have to get bashed in the head by American cops to get equal treatment under the law? |
Absolutely not. It wouldn't matter if I integrated, spoke Korean and wore a track suit with flip-flops. I would still just be another foreigner.
There isn't even a way to say "non-Korean Korean." National identity is tied up with blood. It's a sad reaction to Japanese colonialism, but it's a fact of life.
I'm saying that Korea wants to do business with the West, demands access to our markets and educational systems and treats us as racially excluded from the higher levels of their society.
Racism is LAW in Korea. Foreigners are RACIALLY EXCLUDED from becoming full-time professors in Korea.
Canada hasn't had RACIALLY EXCLUSIVE LAWS since the head tax in the inter-war period and our bloody government had to apologize for it.
Racism in Korea, however, is just good politics.
You people who think that there's anything that can be done about it except wait for these children of Vietnamese brides to grow up are kidding yourselves.
Koreans want to the world to think they are ready for prime-time but refuse to get their minds out of 19th century Social Darwinism.
What's really so pathetic is that their notions of racial purity are actually European by way of Germany/Japan.
So, get a mushroom haircut, smoke thin little cigarettes, wear a black suit and suck air over your front teeth all you want. They'll still keep staring at the hair on your forearms. |
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