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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Around the same time that I articulated the idea that it was due to American bases in Iraq. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but we are discussing Ron Paul here. And Ron Paul said this -- as Tiger Beer reminds us.
| BJWD wrote: |
| Why did they do it...? |
I do not have an answer, BJWD. But the one Chalmers Johnson and Stephen Kinzer offer, the one Ron Paul parrots, does little more than effectively blame the victim. I reject that as (1) enemy propaganda, (2) muckraking, antiAmerican journalism, and (3) just plain lazy, simple-minded thinking.
Did you buy into and repeat Saddam's line that he was assuming leadership of the entire Middle East to drive the Israelis out during the Gulf War, by the way...? Did that truly describe Saddam's motives in taking Kuwait...?
Do you believe that bin Laden humanistically wants nothing more than to liberate the Middle East from "the imperialists...?"
In any case, the American presence in the Middle East clearly played a contributory role. But at what point do you assign agency and responsibility to the perpetrators?
Do you know that Chile has deliberately and systematically humiliated Bolivia for over a hundred years, denied La Paz a port or even solid access to a port, as part of the spoils the Chileans claimed and seized after the War of the Pacific? that Chile bases military forces in these mineral-rich lands which historically belonged to Bolivia and Peru? and that Chile treats both Bolivia and Peru antagonistically and indeed scorns them both on racist grounds?
"Indios," they say.
Why has Bolivia not hijacked airliners and rammed them into Santiago as "blowback," BJWD?
Last edited by Gopher on Thu May 24, 2007 11:45 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I am wrong, but we are discussing Ron Paul here. And Ron Paul said this -- as Tiger Beer reminds us.
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I'm not Ron Paul. He has made clear his position, though. At the debate he was making a general point about muslim rage towards the USA. He has admitted that he ought to have just referenced the 9/11 report (which says, apparently, that 9/11 was a response to American policy). His position is actually the same as mine, and he had articulated it many times before the debates. 9/11 was a result of American policy. He does not think that OBL was looking in the future to the embassy in Iraq and used that as a justification for 9/11. But Paul is saying that the next 9/11 might very well be inspired by that embarassy.
But I think you already know that.. Why are you deliberately mischaracterizing Paul?
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I do not have an answer, BJWD. But the one Chalmers Johnson and Stephen Kinzer offer, the one Ron Paul parrots, does little more than effectively blame the victim. |
I am not blaming the Americans who died for their own death. I am not that "indian" Churchill and his "little eichmans" comment. I am saying that their crazy mulim hate became directed at the US government due to some actions of that government.
If you understand islam as I do (arrogant, supremacist, racist ect ect) you begin to understand why those crazy bastards hate "us" so much. It is the same thing with Israel. Not one infidel can have any real power in a muslim land. This is why they will take back Spain, Portugal and will try (but fail) at Singapore. It is a slap in the face to their fragile, pathetic, cry-baby muslim little boy egos for their imaginary friend not to be calling the shots in the "lands of meccah". |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am not mischaracterizing Ron Paul. His "position" (actually Johnson and Kinzer's position) is not a sophisticated one, it is not well-considered, it is not based on professional research and scholarship, and it goes all over the place.
Why are you willing to overlook that and edit or interpret what he says as if you were his public-relations officer...?
| BJWD wrote: |
| ...the 9/11 report (which says, apparently, that 9/11 was a response to American policy)... |
I can pull the report of my shelves and quote it necessary. Hopefully I have enough credibility with you that I do not need to do so.
The 9/11 report does not conclude this. The 9/11 report merely reports that this is what bin Laden and his followers claim motivated them.
There is a difference.
Last edited by Gopher on Thu May 24, 2007 10:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, fair enough. I didn't read it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| you begin to understand why those crazy bastards hate... |
The French went through a "crazy bastards" phase as did the Soviets and others. Their own societies had, for the most part, created these conditions and responses. So it is with this Fundamentalist Revolution that has swept much of the Middle East into its own storm of hatred and destruction, BJWD.
As I recall, they were moving to annihilate Israel, hijacking airliners and engaging in other forms of terrorism, including assassinating Israelis at Munich, years before the Carter Doctrine -- years before the Americans had even moved in to the Middle East.
Neither Chalmers Johnson, Stephen Kinzer, nor Ron Paul show any awareness at all of these things.
To give you an idea of the insanity of Johnson's position, BJWD, he sides with the Branch Davidians, mere persecuted "religious dissidents" who the military-industrial complex moved against in the early 1990s...This is so one-sided and antiEstablishment it is just difficult to believe the guy has a doctorate. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the crazy bastards hate any infidel that steps on their land. That is the point. France, Israel, Singapore, America, Spain. If you are not part of the unmha but step foot into dar el islam, yer screwed.
This is why Israel will never have peace. And this is why those towers fell. |
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Masta_Don
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Hyehwa-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
As I recall, they were moving to annihilate Israel, hijacking airliners and engaging in other forms of terrorism, including assassinating Israelis at Munich, years before the Carter Doctrine -- years before the Americans had even moved in to the Middle East.
Neither Chalmers Johnson, Stephen Kinzer, nor Ron Paul show any awareness at all of these things.
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Please explain to me - I must be slow - how does this, before American presence in the Middle East, effect America? Trying to "annihilate Israel, hijacking airlines and engaging in other forms of terrorism" had nothing to do with me or America. Thus it's irrelavant.
As for short, snippy answers, it's the Shah's fault.
As for your claim earlier that I was trying to pigeon-hole you, I think the Democrats are just as guilty for enabling and spreading fear. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Ron Paul thanks for coming here tonight.
First question have you ever heard of the Caliphate? What is your opinion of it?
Here is some reading for you.
l
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-Qa'ida (The Base)
Qa�idat al-Jihad
Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places
World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
Islamic Salvation Foundation
Usama bin Laden Network
Al-Qa'ida is multi-national, with members from numerous countries and with a worldwide presence. Senior leaders in the organization are also senior leaders in other terrorist organizations, including those designated by the Department of State as foreign terrorist organizations, such as the Egyptian al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya and the Egyptian al-Jihad. Al-Qa'ida seeks a global radicalization of existing Islamic groups and the creation of radical Islamic groups where none exist.
Al-Qa'ida supports Muslim fighters in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, and Kosovo. It also trains members of terrorist organizations from such diverse countries as the Philippines, Algeria, and Eritrea.
Al-Qa'ida's goal is to "unite all Muslims and to establish a government which follows the rule of the Caliphs." Bin Laden has stated that the only way to establish the Caliphate is by force. Al-Qa'ida's goal, therefore, is to overthrow nearly all Muslim governments, which are viewed as corrupt, to drive Western influence from those countries, and eventually to abolish state boundaries. |
http://fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm
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CAIRO (AP) � Al-Qaeda's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq." |
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-27-zawahri-warning_x.htm
Al Qaeda has a plan and here it is.
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Al Qaeda has a plan, and it�s
been published in a book (Al-Zarqawi: al Qaeda's Second Generation) by
Jordanian journalist, Fouad Hussein. Several al Qaeda leaders were interviewed
for the book, including al Qaeda�s man in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The book
is only available in Arabic, but it does lay out a very straightforward
strategy for world conquest. Actually, it sounds a lot like what the nazis and
communists had in mind last century. The only difference is that, while the
nazis killed you for who you were, and the communists killed you for what you
believed,al Qaeda kills you for religious differences. No matter which zealot
gets you, you're still dead.
According to Fouad Hussein, al Qaeda has a seven phase plan for world conquest.
It goes like this.
Phase 1, the �wakeup call.� Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West (like
September 11, 2001) get the infidels (non-Moslems) to make war on Islamic
nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al Qaedas banner.
This phase is considered complete.
Phase 2, the �eye opening.� This is the phase we are in, where al Qaeda does
battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how it�s done. This
phase is supposed to be completed by next year.
Phase 3, �the rising.� Millions of aroused (in a terrorist sense) Moslems go to
war against Islam�s enemies for the rest of the decade. Especially heavy
attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that major damage in Israel
will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.
Phase 4, �the downfall.� By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military power.
Phase 5, �the Caliphate.� By 2016, the Caliphate (one government for all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.
Phase 6, �world conquest.� By 2022, the rest of the world will be conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.
Phase 7, �final victory.� All the world�s inhabitants will be forced to either
convert to Islam, or submit (as second class citizens) to Islamic rule. This
will be completed by 2025 or thereabouts.
Nothing really new in all this. Al Qaeda has been talking openly about this
(the global Islamic state) for years. These Islamic terrorists are true
believers. God is on their side, and they believe all obstacles will be swept
aside by the power of the Lord. Will al Qaeda�s plan work? Ask the nazis and communists.
James F. Dunnigan
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http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/478-2314.aspx
Who is Jemaah Islamiyah?
| Quote: |
Jemaah Islamiyah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Jemaah Islamiyah
Southeast Asian militant Islamic organization
Years active
1969�present
Known for
Killed hundreds of civilians in the Bali car bombing in October 12, 2002
Jemaah Islamiyah[1] (JI, Arabic phrase meaning "Islamic Group" or "Islamic Community") is a Southeast Asian militant Islamic organization dedicated to the establishment of a Daulah Islamiyah[2] (Islamic State) in Southeast Asia incorporating Indonesia, Malaysia, the southern Philippines, Singapore and Brunei[3]. JI was added to the United Nations 1267 Committee's list of terrorist organizations linked to al-Qaeda or the Taliban on 25 October 2002[4] under UN Security Council Resolution 1267.
JI has its roots in Darul Islam (DI, meaning �House of Islam�), a radical movement in Indonesia in the 1940s. JI was founded on 1 Jan 1993 by DI leaders Abu Bakar Bashir and Abdullah Sungkar[5] while hiding in Malaysia from the persecution[6] of the Suharto Government. After the fall of the Suharto regime in 1998, both men returned to Indonesia.[7] where it gained a terrorist edge when one of its founders, the late Abdullah Sungkar, established contact with Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network. [8] |
Al Qaeda wants to kick the US out of the middle east - but it doesn't stop there.
Tigerbeer wrote:
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Most pro-war Republicans are convinced that terrorists just plain hate freedom. |
Ok . They are wrong.
That doesn't make Ron Paul or most anyone else in the anti war movement correct. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Masta_Don wrote: |
| how does this, before [the] American presence in the Middle East, effect America...? it's irrelevant. |
I take this as an honest question. I also take it as indicative of those who support Ron Paul's utterly simplistic pre-Industrial Revolution-focused neoisolationism -- as if America could and should return to the late 1790s in its foreign policy. It reflects a complete failure to appreciate world affairs and America's role in them, especially post-1945, but also post-1918 as well.
Frankly, the fact that you would ask such questions ought to exclude you from any and all foreign-policy councils and decisionmaking -- even at the citizen level.
Yet another justification for the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and think-tanks like Rand. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Masta_Don wrote: |
| I wish he would pick up the libertarian party banner after losing the nomination and run with it. They really could use some exposure and he's the closest thing they've got as far as name recognition. |
I sure hope so. |
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