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US Muslims more assimilated than British
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Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject:

mack4289 wrote:

On the other hand is right and your argument against her proves it viccisitude. You're not disputing whether or not the State Dept would be upset about Russian civilian lives being lost, you're saying you've got to consider the circumstances. I agree with that, but if civilian lives really were sacred, then the circumstances would be irrelevant.

What I'm saying is that it's unconstitutional for the US Government to intervene in foreign affairs that do not pose a direct threat to US citizens. Our military has been used inappropriately and the world needs to stop looking at the US as a freebie 911 service or world police enforcement agency. Yes, most Americans feel this way too! We don't have to agree with everything our government does and we don't.

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:39 am Post subject:

chimp wrote:

Quote:

Basically ALL American immigrants are more assimilated than European ones. American is a concept- but British, French, Dutch is still thought of as an ethnicity.

Good point.

Big Bird:

I think I see what you're after here and this is a good thread topic, not to be paternalistic. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a Brit criticize the U.S. for its parochialism while ignoring the U.K.'s glaring provincialism.
I'll have more to say later.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:43 am Post subject:

stevemcgarrett wrote:

chimp wrote:

Quote:

Basically ALL American immigrants are more assimilated than European ones. American is a concept- but British, French, Dutch is still thought of as an ethnicity.

Don't forget the fact that America consists of a large percentage of liberal democrats who reject conservative, narrow-minded parochialism. Also, you seem to be forgetting that it's not just Brits who accuse America of this, but also Canadians, Aussies and other people from various parts of the globe. Nevertheless, America remains a salad bowl of different ideologies. Americans are very diverse, perhaps more so than any other peoples on the planet and I challenge anyone to put forth a strong debate proving otherwise.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:19 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Which kind of complicates the hypothesis that Muslim anti-western radicalism is simply a response to racism, because why haven't Hindus, Sikhs, and other victimized groups produced a similar reaction?

It's not simply a response to racism. There is more going on. But look at the International stage. Think about where most Hindus are concentrated. Do you see the West intefering in Indian affairs in the same way as they do in the middle east? Has a European colony similar to Israel been set up in the vicinity of Mumbai, with a few million Hindus living under the brutal occupation of a foreign power, bolstered by its western allies? Hindus are mostly concentrated in India, where they are in control of their own nation and destiny. It's a whole different set of circumstances.

But racism has surely played a large part in encouraging many British converts to radical Islam.

Hindu fundamentalism gets little press, but it is rather ugly. However, the same resentments are not at play.

Big Bird:

I agree with you that the international situsation has played a pivotal role in the rise of Islamic extremism. I think I noted this in my later posts.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am Post subject:

Vicissitude wrote:

mack4289 wrote:

Vic:

I'm not sure how that post of yours above relates to the point that Mack and I were making.

Please understand that my State Department example was not intended to be anti-American at all. It was just an example that came to mind of a group of respectable people who would probably be okay with Islamic suicide bombings in a particular context.

Let me rephrase my point...

If you took a poll asking people if they thought that civilian casualties were justified in certain circumstances, most people would answer yes. Muslim support for such actions should therefore not be portrayed as something unique to that faith.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:13 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Vicissitude wrote:

mack4289 wrote:

Next time you might want be more PC and use 'United Nations' rather than "State Department" because most people understand this to mean Department of State which is most definately American.

Quote:

The Department of State is the lead cabinet-level agency concerned with the conduct of foreign relations throughout the world. Its Bureau of Intelligence and Research, as a member of the Intelligence Community, brings the Department's unique capabilities and broad foreign policy perspectives to bear on intelligence problems and challenges.

The Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) functions as the "eyes and ears" of the State Department and provides continuous real-time intelligence support to both senior policymakers and working-level officials. INR analysts evaluate, interpret, and disseminate nearly two million reports and produce about 3500 written assessments each year. INR also works continuously with the Secretary and the entire Department to ensure that intelligence and intelligence activities support America's foreign policy priorities.

http://www.intelligence.gov/1-members_state.shtml

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:52 am Post subject:

mack4289 wrote:

OTOH was not posing the argument against me. She made a very hypothetical and unfair argument and I wanted to point that out.

I take issue with your use of the term "State Dept."

Who's making the argument that, "civilian lives really were sacred" because it wasn't me. What's it got to do with the OP anyhow? Tie-in please?

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:04 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Big Bird:

I agree with you that the international situsation has played a pivotal role in the rise of Islamic extremism. I think I noted this in my later posts.

Yes, and this "international situsation" goes back to the days of Roman invasion/brutality/subjucation, to the days of Alexander-the-Great invasion/brutality/subjucation all the way through the first, second and third crusades' invasion/brutality/subjucation ... up to now. Wow, that was a really fast rewind over thousands of years of history.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Next time you might want be more PC and use 'United Nations' rather than "State Department" because most people understand this to mean Department of State which is most definately American.

Evidently, you have some sort of an issue with anti-Americanism, and are interpreting my post in that light. However, I can assure you that you have definitely picked the wrong target here. Anyone who reads my posts regularly can tell you that I am definitely not anti-American, and have nothing but contempt for those who imagine that the problems facing the world can be understood in terms of one "rogue superpower" misbehaving.

I said the State Department because they were known to have openly supported an Islamic insurgency in the 1980s. But I could just as easily have cited 10 Downing Street or the Presidential Palace in Paris as places where people would accept civilian casualties in some circumstances.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject:

Quote:

On the other hand wrote:

Big Bird:

I agree with you that the international situsation has played a pivotal role in the rise of Islamic extremism. I think I noted this in my later posts.

Yes, and this "international situsation" goes back to the days of Roman invasion/brutality/subjucation, to the days of Alexander-the-Great invasion/brutality/subjucation all the way through the first, second and third crusades' invasion/brutality/subjucation ... up to now. Wow, that was a really fast rewind over thousands of years of history.

Huh? I don't get your point here. If I say that a certain phenomenon is related to international affairs, I should be criticized for not giving a complete overview of everything leading up to the current situation?

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject:

My comments are in blue:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

Next time you might want be more PC and use 'United Nations' rather than "State Department" because most people understand this to mean Department of State which is most definately American.

Evidently, you have some sort of an issue with anti-Americanism,[uh, yeah, well, as an American myself I do take issue with anti-Americanism, much in the same way that Koreans take issue with anti-Koreanisms or Brits take issue with anti-Englishisms] and are interpreting my post in that light. [in light of what exactly, your obvious anti-Americanisms cleverly disguised as intellectual elitism?]

However, I can assure you that you have definitely picked the wrong target here. [I beg to differ]

Anyone who reads my posts regularly can tell you that I am definitely not anti-American, and have nothing but contempt for those who imagine that the problems facing the world can be understood in terms of one "rogue superpower" misbehaving. [this sort of reminds me of white Americans who sometimes say, "I have nothing against blacks, I listen to their music, I have a black friend... and so on. It's called a perpetual state of denial. Who are you quoting as saying, "rogue superpower?" This wasn't me and it's certainly not something that Americans would say. It sounds an awful lot like anti-Americanism more than anything else.]

I said the State Department [After all we've hashed over, I can't believe you are still using this term State Department. You do understand that you are talking about America's Department of State, right?] because they [oh are you trying to say Americans again but not willing to come right out with it because you deny...] were known to have openly supported an Islamic insurgency in the 1980s [oh, stop stop beating around the bush. You are definately talking about the U.S. support of the Taliban against Russian forces] . But I could just as easily have cited 10 Downing Street or the Presidential Palace in Paris as places where people would accept civilian casualties in some circumstances. [I'm not addressing issues pertaining to civilian casualties and I don't quite understand why you are here in this thread discussing them unless you are talking about the casulties of Muslims who are disaffected in European countries. Honestly, I never knew about these 'Paki' slurs that have been taking place against minorities in GB. We call that a hate crime in America. Contact the Anti-Defamation League]

Speaking of the Anti-Defamation League - news just came in - Jews are also having serious problems with a rise in Anti-Semitic Attitudes in a study on five European countries and this has to do with the Middle East foreign polices.

Quote:

Jerusalem, Israel, May 14, 2007 � A large number of Europeans continue to be infected with anti-Jewish attitudes, holding on to the classical anti-Semitic canards and conspiracy theories that have dogged Jews through the centuries, according to a new poll released by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today.

A survey of five European countries revealed that a plurality of Europeans believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than to their country and that they have too much power in business and finance. The opinion survey of 2,714 adults � slightly more than 500 in each of the five countries � found an increase in negative attitudes toward Jews, or in some instances no change, from its 2005 findings.

As to attitudes regarding Israel and the Middle East, the poll showed mixed findings. For example, sympathy for the Palestinians over Israel continue but strong attitudes against Iran and Hamas were evidenced.

Asked about Iran's nuclear development, a majority believe Iran is developing a nuclear weapon and strongly support sanctions against Iran.

A majority identified Hamas as a terrorist organization and supports the European decision not to provide foreign aid to the Palestinian government until Hamas renounces terrorism, and agrees to recognize Israel and agreements signed by Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

Attitudes Toward Jews and the Middle East in Five European Countries is a survey of France, Italy, Germany, Spain, and Poland, conducted March 21�April 16, 2007 among the general public.

Respondents across the continent were asked a series of indicator questions representing the most pernicious notions of anti-Semitism and whether or not they thought the following four statements were "probably true" or "probably false."

Jews are more loyal to Israel than to this country.
Jews have too much power in the business world.
Jews have too much power in international financial markets.
Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust.
Respondents were also asked whether they agree or disagree with the following statement:

The Jews are responsible for the death of Christ; and
If their opinion of Jews was influenced by actions taken by the State of Israel and whether they believed the violence directed against European Jews was a result of anti-Jewish feelings or anti-Israel sentiment.
Findings Summary

� A majority of those surveyed across Europe, 51%, believe that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to their own country, with a majority of respondents in Spain, Poland and Germany saying they believe that this statement is "probably true."

� High levels of those surveyed still believe in the traditional anti-Jewish canard that "Jews have too much power in the business world." Overall, nearly 39% of all respondents believe this stereotype to be true.

� Similarly, respondents still adhere to the notion that "Jews have too much power in international financial markets." Overall, 44% cling to the traditional stereotype.

� Large portions of the European public continue to believe that Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust. Overall, 47% of those surveyed believe it is "probably true." In fact, a plurality of respondents in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, and Spain believe this notion to be true.

� Overall, 20% of those surveyed continue to blame Jews for the death of Jesus.

� Overall, 25% of those surveyed say that their opinion of Jews is influenced by the actions taken by the State of Israel. Of those respondents whose opinions are influenced, a majority, 52%, say that their opinion of Jews is worse as a result of the actions taken by Israel.

� Nearly half of all respondents agree with the notion that "American Jews control U.S. Middle Eastern policy;" in Spain - 53%; in Poland - 56%.

� Overall, 51% of respondents believe that Iran's nuclear program is being developed for military purposes, with an additional 16% believing it is both a weapons program and a nuclear energy program. Only 14% believe it is solely for nuclear energy.

Attitudes 'Legitimize Anti-Semitism'

"Millions of Europeans continue to accept a wide range of traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories, including the charge that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to their home country. These attitudes help incite and legitimize anti-Semitism, including violence against Jews, and give us great concern," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director.

"We are not surprised to find that a high percentage of the respondents in Spain and Poland hold negative views of Jews. Given each country's history of animus towards Jews, it appears that anti-Semitism is ingrained in the fabric of each society.

"Equally disturbing is the finding that nearly half of all respondents, and a majority in Spain and Poland, believe that American Jews control U.S. policy on the Middle East, and old canard that has been resurrected in mainstream America and bolsters existing European attitudes.

"The findings of this survey demonstrate that individual governments and the EU, who have condemned anti-Semitism and sought ways to counteract it, need to find methods and implement programs that will break down the old stereotypes that die hard, and take leadership to make anti-Semitism unacceptable in their societies."

Country by Country Findings

In responding "probably true" to the statement, "Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country," the 2007 survey found: (view graph)

France � 39%, up from 29% in 2005
Germany � 51%, down from 55%
Italy � 48%, down from 57%
Spain - 60%, up from 51%
Poland � 59%, up from 52%
In responding "probably true" to the statement, "Jews have too much power in the business world," the 2007 survey found: (view graph)

France � 28%, up from 25% in 2005
Germany � 21%, up from 20%
Italy � 42%, up from 33%
Spain � 53%, up from 45%
Poland � 49%, up from 43%
In responding "probably true" to the statement "Jews have too much power in international financial markets," the 2007 survey found: (view graph)

France � 28%, up from 24% in 2005
Germany � 25%, up from 24%
Italy � 42%, up from 32%
Spain � 68%, up from 54%
Poland � 54%, up from 43%
In responding "probably true" to the statement "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust," the 2007 survey found: (view graph)

France � 40%, up from 34% in 2005
Germany � 45%, down from 48%
Italy � 46%, down from 49%
Spain � 46%, no change
Poland � 58% up from 52%
ADL commissioned First International Resources to conduct the survey. Fielded in Europe by Taylor Nelson Sofres, the telephone interviews were conducted in the native language of each of the countries, among the general population. The margin of error for each country is +/-4 percent at 95% level of confidence.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/5045_13.htm

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

no no sweety, you just need to edit and check your grammar (work on tenses). This statement:
"I agree with you that the international situsation has played a pivotal role in the rise of Islamic extremism" should read, ... the long history of western invasion, brutality and subjugation of the now heavily populated Islamic world has lead up to an Islamic backlash where we have some extremist groups who are bringing shame upon Muslims as they terrorize throughout the world killing thousands of innocent people.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject:

That is garbage history. I'm impressed. Tell me, dear v, how Alexander or Rome made islamic radicals. Be clear in your time line. Be sure to discuss the myriad of religions active in the Middle East at the times in question, and how those religions were destroyed. Pay particular attention to the Ol'G's of islamic radicalism; the people formerly known as Persian. Also, discuss the goal of the Crusades, and the outcome for Europe had the Battle of Vienna not pushed back the Ottomans.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

That is garbage history. I'm impressed.

Tell me, dear v, how Alexander or Rome made islamic radicals. Be clear in your time line. Be sure to discuss the myriad of religions active in the Middle East at the times in question, and how those religions were destroyed. Pay particular attention to the Ol'G's of islamic radicalism; the people formerly known as Persian. Also, discuss the goal of the Crusades, and the outcome for Europe had the Battle of Vienna not pushed back the Ottomans.

I'm saying that the problems that Arabs and Persians have with westerners stems back a long way before the times of Islam or Christianity. So this radicalism - as you say- is just the package for something even deeper. The root causes - when you strip it all down - are cultural indifference and cultural chauvinism. Those twins are primitive, pre-historic and part of human evolutionary history of fighting, war and breeding.

venus

Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Near Seoul

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject:

Radical muslims in the UK see it as a weakened country with no backbone and actually believe they'll one day hold very strong influnce over it if not take it over completely. The ones in the US know that the US is not such a p*ssy and it will take them a long time to build up spheres of influence within it, so they are behaving nicely and biding their time. A crude way of putting it I do apologise, I'm tired. But in a nutshell, that's the way it is....

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