|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
 Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
I'm glad that I live in a world that has the capability for suffering myself. Nobody ever complains about a new video game because it's too hard, only if the ending sucks. I don't demand a Sesame Street version of the universe where the floor turns to rubber when I fall down, where taunts from somebody are automatically turned away before I have the opportunity to hear them, where a bullet fired at me turns into flowery essence before it strikes me.
Here's the quote:
| Quote: |
"Listen! I took the case of children only to make my case clearer. Of the other
tears of humanity with which the earth is soaked from its crust to its centre,
I will say nothing. I have narrowed my subject on purpose. I am a bug, and I
recognise in all humility that I cannot understand why the world is arranged as
it is. Men are themselves to blame, I suppose; they were given paradise, they
wanted freedom, and stole fire from heaven, though they knew they would become
unhappy, so there is no need to pity them. With my pitiful, earthly, Euclidian
understanding, all I know is that there is suffering and that there are none
guilty; that cause follows effect, simply and directly; that everything flows
and finds its level - but that's only Euclidian nonsense, I know that, and I
can't consent to live by it! What comfort is it to me that there are none guilty
and that cause follows effect simply and directly, and that I know it?- I must
have justice, or I will destroy myself. And not justice in some remote infinite
time and space, but here on earth, and that I could see myself. I have believed
in it. I want to see it, and if I am dead by then, let me rise again, for if it
all happens without me, it will be too unfair. Surely I haven't suffered simply
that I, my crimes and my sufferings, may manure the soil of the future harmony
for somebody else. I want to see with my own eyes the hind lie down with the
lion and the victim rise up and embrace his murderer. I want to be there when
everyone suddenly understands what it has all been for. All the religions of the
world are built on this longing, and I am a believer. But then there are the
children, and what am I to do about them? That's a question I can't answer. For
the hundredth time I repeat, there are numbers of questions, but I've only taken
the children, because in their case what I mean is so unanswerably clear. Listen!
If all must suffer to pay for the eternal harmony, what have children to do with
it, tell me, please? It's beyond all comprehension why they should suffer, and
why they should pay for the harmony. Why should they, too, furnish material to
enrich the soil for the harmony of the future? I understand solidarity in sin
among men. I understand solidarity in retribution, too; but there can be no such
solidarity with children. And if it is really true that they must share
responsibility for all their fathers' crimes, such a truth is not of this world
and is beyond my comprehension. Some jester will say, perhaps, that the child
would have grown up and have sinned, but you see he didn't grow up, he was torn
to pieces by the dogs, at eight years old. Oh, Alyosha, I am not blaspheming! I
understand, of course, what an upheaval of the universe it will be when everything
in heaven and earth blends in one hymn of praise and everything that lives and has
lived cries aloud: 'Thou art just, O Lord, for Thy ways are revealed.' When the
mother embraces the fiend who threw her child to the dogs, and all three cry aloud
with tears, 'Thou art just, O Lord!' then, of course, the crown of knowledge will
be reached and all will be made clear. But what pulls me up here is that I can't
accept that harmony. And while I am on earth, I make haste to take my own measures.
You see, Alyosha, perhaps it really may happen that if I live to that moment, or
rise again to see it, I, too, perhaps, may cry aloud with the rest, looking at the
mother embracing the child's torturer, 'Thou art just, O Lord!' but I don't want to
cry aloud then. While there is still time, I hasten to protect myself, and so I
renounce the higher harmony altogether. It's not worth the tears of that one
tortured child who beat itself on the breast with its little fist and prayed in its
stinking outhouse, with its unexpiated tears to 'dear, kind God'! It's not worth it,
because those tears are unatoned for. They must be atoned for, or there can be no
harmony. But how? How are you going to atone for them? Is it possible? By their
being avenged? But what do I care for avenging them? What do I care for a hell
for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been
tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want
to embrace. I don't want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to
swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that
the truth is not worth such a price. I don't want the mother to embrace the oppressor
who threw her son to the dogs! She dare not forgive him! Let her forgive him for
herself, if she will, let her forgive the torturer for the immeasurable suffering
of her mother's heart. But the sufferings of her tortured child she has no right to
forgive; she dare not forgive the torturer, even if the child were to forgive him!
And if that is so, if they dare not forgive, what becomes of harmony? Is there in
the whole world a being who would have the right to forgive and could forgive? I
don't want harmony. From love for humanity I don't want it. I would rather be left
with the unavenged suffering. I would rather remain with my unavenged suffering and
unsatisfied indignation, even if I were wrong. Besides, too high a price is asked
for harmony; it's beyond our means to pay so much to enter on it. And so I hasten to
give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back
as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha,
only I most respectfully return him the ticket." |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cosmo
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.
Albert Einstein |
I f-ing LOVE Al! That dude say the smartest things all the time.
I'd bet when he'd take a big dump he'd find the most poetic way to say "ahh, that felt great!". |
How about this...
"It ain�t what ya don�t know that hurts ya.
What really puts a hurtin� on ya is what ya knows for sure, that just aint so."
Uncle Remus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I have come to the almost unavoidable conclusion that the anti-Godsters on this site use Dave's as a substitute for thought and reading. "God can't exist because there are bad things here on Earth." Good gravy. You'd think a 10-year old who never read anything written before Harry Potter would be the only one capable of writing such tripe. Old excuses. Old, tired excuses that have been dealt with countless times over the past 1800 years or so. I have more respect for people who don't make excuses for rejecting God but just come out and say that they don't care if He exists or not, either way they'll go on living exactly as they wish. I can understand that kind of guy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cosmo
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
quote:
My question is: How can god exist really?
Take a country like Somalia for example.....
Most of the people living there survive off minimal food and clean water daily...the rest are fighting a civil war in the name of god, yet ALL of them are devout followers of god who live thier lives based on the teachings ofe Muhammed and Allah.....
Where is the hand of god for those people who face nothing but the threat of starvation or slaughter on a dialy basis??
Also, how can wars be fought IN THE NAME OF GOD????
People fight wars over things that don't exist: Borders, Wealth, and GOD....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nowhere in the Bible is it said that God is the current ruler of this world.
Nowhere in the Bible is it said that Jesus is the current ruler of this world.
According to the Bible, Jesus referred to Satan as "the ruler of this world." ( John 12:31; 14:30; 16;11 )
According to the Bible, Satan The Devil is "the god of this system of things." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 )
According to the Bible, "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." ( 1 John 5:19 ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcgeezer
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| "God can't exist because there are bad things here on Earth." |
That's actually not really what i said...Let me explain again. You and Bob, and Pete, Frank Elvis, whoever, have total faith and devotion towards god not a problem. YOU on the other hand live a life where the struggles of food, water, care, and shelter do not apply in your daily routine....You're living a good life of a free young person here in Korea, doing some world travelling, going to church on sundays etc....
What I'm saying is that those who devote/live their lives by the word and dierction of god ONLY have nothing in life...and by nothing i don't mean material wealths that we enjoy here in the west, but you know, maybe drinking water ripe with dysentery would be gods way of somehow evening the playing field? come on...why make some in this world happy and safwe at the expense of others, that doesn't sound very god-like to me!!!
And besides, the whole 'proof of god' argument is another can of worms on its own.....[/url] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| flakfizer wrote: |
| I have come to the almost unavoidable conclusion that the anti-Godsters on this site use Dave's as a substitute for thought and reading. "God can't exist because there are bad things here on Earth." Good gravy. |
No. There is no evidence for god. That is why. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| A world full of suffering denies the existence of a loving God, but not necessarily a biblical God, he love that suffering. He loved it as elderly people who worshipped him through out their poverty stricken lives faced a hurricane meant for sinners. He loved it as they prayed whilst retreating from the floods to the attic where the waters finally drowned them. If a loving God exists it is one who loves suffering and is completely untrustworthy. If you still believe God loves you, then you have what is known as faith. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
BJWD:
Let me clue you in. God gives man free will and man determines how to use that--for better or for ill.
Man must assume responsibility for his own feeble actions in the face of war, famine, disease, and general malaise.
| Quote: |
| I don't need to believe in a dude who got nailed to a cross to have meaning, morality or purpose. |
Maybe not but your purpose ends at your death. Not so ours, if we've led a righteous life. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Maybe not but your purpose ends at your death. Not so ours, if we've led a righteous life. |
Keep telling yourself that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Maybe not but your purpose ends at your death. Not so ours, if we've led a righteous life. |
I believe the righteousness that you must adhere to is fundamentally anti-human.
That said, the idea of god absolving himself from the mess he (apparently) created simply by giving free will is absurd. It is the theological equivalent of an ace up a sleeve. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| I have come to the almost unavoidable conclusion that the anti-Godsters on this site use Dave's as a substitute for thought and reading. "God can't exist because there are bad things here on Earth." Good gravy. |
No. There is no evidence for god. That is why. |
That is not proof that He doesn't exist. The only honest rationalist positions would be to become agnostic, and/or admit that reason falls short on this matter and either believe or not believe.
Concerning Nietzsche, the irony of your citing him to argue your case is that Nietzsche regards those who create new values most highly. Nietzsche admires the Jews for conquering Rome, and although he finds the New Testament nauseating, he has Zarathustra proclaim that Jesus would have repented of some of his positions had he not died so young.
Listen carefully to another Nietzsche quote, which I have selected to complement Mithridates' Brothers Karamazov quotation:
| Quote: |
| In rare and isolated instances it may really be the case that a will to truth, some extravagant and adventurous courage, a metaphysician's ambition to hold a hopeless position, may participate and ultimately prefer even a handful of "certainty" to a whole cartload of beautiful possibilities; there may actually be puritanical fanatics of conscience who prefer even a certain nothing to an uncertain something to lie down on -- and die. But this is nihilism and the sign of a despairing, mortally weary soul -- however courageous the gestures of such a virtue may look. |
Personally, I don't even know if you qualify as a desparing soul, BJWD. That would imply there is some real depth in your position. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
That is not proof that He doesn't exist. The only honest rationalist positions would be to become agnostic, and/or admit that reason falls short on this matter and either believe or not believe.
And that is the position I hold. But I fully, 100%, totally, fully completely, absolutely and totally reject the human constructions of "god" and the religious nonsense that follows.
Concerning Nietzsche, the irony of your citing him to argue your case is that Nietzsche regards those who create new values most highly. Nietzsche admires the Jews for conquering Rome, and although he finds the New Testament nauseating, he has Zarathustra proclaim that Jesus would have repented of some of his positions had he not died so young.
Listen carefully to another Nietzsche quote, which I have selected to complement Mithridates' Brothers Karamazov quotation: |
| Quote: |
In rare and isolated instances it may really be the case that a will to truth, some extravagant and adventurous courage, a metaphysician's ambition to hold a hopeless position, may participate and ultimately prefer even a handful of "certainty" to a whole cartload of beautiful possibilities; there may actually be puritanical fanatics of conscience who prefer even a certain nothing to an uncertain something to lie down on -- and die. But this is nihilism and the sign of a despairing, mortally weary soul -- however courageous the gestures of such a virtue may look. |
I think I dealt with that above. When I say "no god" I mean no god, as he has been constructed. Mostly, I just post tirades about religion, which is pollution for the mind. I also dealt with this when responding to that pansy dd, when I said I'm not so arrogant to assume that my mind could understand. Also, look at the sentences from the OP written by Hitchens that I put in bold. I'll post them below:
| Quote: |
The mildest criticism of religion is also the most radical and the most devastating one. Religion is man-made. Even the men who made it cannot agree on what their prophets or redeemers or gurus actually said or did.
Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other.
As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything. |
My position is entirely consistent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rationalism has been at least as violent as religion in history. The French Revolution, which Nietzsche calls the 'beginning of the last great slave rebellion' led to a 30 year's orgy of violence that culminated with Napoleon being sent to St. Helena.
Rationalism, like every human philosophy, including Hitchens', is man-made. So I don't really see the cogency in Christopher's critique. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Rationalism, like every human philosophy, including Hitchens', is man-made. So I don't really see the cogency in Christopher's critique. |
That is because you are mixing up his critique of man made religion with his own personal beliefs. I should hope, if you are a despairing soul, that you see that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| That is not proof that He doesn't exist. The only honest rationalist positions would be to become agnostic, and/or admit that reason falls short on this matter and either believe or not believe. |
And you point out the major shortcoming of BJWD's belief system. He is a "fantasist" -- when there is no supporting evidence, he believes that means, his own belief system triumphs and he issues a call to extremes. Valid point to say his arguements are quite "Jacobinian" (militant atheistic but put "militant _____" in the slot, what ever the topic may be.
| Quote: |
| That is because you are mixing up his critique of man made religion with his own personal beliefs. I should hope, if you are a despairing soul, that you see that. |
And he still doesn't get it -- that one's own personal belief system is "religion" and that no matter how hard you'd try, "no man is an island" to quote a very unatheistic man.
We are but religion, soaked in religion and we are but "God" in whatever form you want to imagine it. It is the social manifestation that we must debate about, not something as he proposes, that there is a state where "religion" does not exist.
I know most people reading won't get it ....but I'm with Swift when he said that "We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." I hope this world finds more religion, that reverence and relationship of one to the many and everything. Not less.
DD
PS. I'm with Kuros on this, agnostic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
