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Yo!Chingo
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul Korea
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 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Doutdes wrote: |
| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
| My husband is an Asian immigrant. His family came to America the legal way. When we have children, I don't believe that the offspring of people that willingly and knowingly broke the laws of my country should have the same chances and advantages as our children. They shouldn't be able to get the same financial aid, or have the same advantage as other minorities to get higher paying jobs b/c yes, my children will be minorites. |
Do you think the children of murderers, rapists, embezzlers, etc. should also be unable to get financial aid or higher paying jobs? Denying benefits for American citizens who happen to be children of Illegal immigrants does nothing than punish people for their parents' actions. Perhaps you were able to choose who your parents were, but the rest of us didn't get that choice. |
I believe that children of American citizens who were born in the USA legally should have access to financial aid and higher paying jobs. It doesn't matter to me if their parent or parents committed crimes because their parents paid into the system that provides the opportunities. I believe that children born to illegal aliens outside of the US should be put on the same boat that mom and dad will have to go back on and should not have the opportunity to stay. If I had my way the children born to illegals in the US would have the same fate. Unfortunately those children who were born on US soil are Americans, and so would stay. Mom and dad will just have to make living arrangements with their legal relatives in the States. That law of citizenship by being born in the US is due for a change btw. If the parents don't want to leave the kids in the US, then the kids go back with their parents to their respective countries, and come back when grown.
In in my heart of hearts I don't believe that they should have the same scholarship opportunities as immigrants that waited their turn and have affirmative action on their side when applying to jobs. I don't believe in giving them those advantages.
If we don't take away the carrots leading the horses, then the horses will keep on coming. If we take away any chance of social welfare, SS at retirement, and that stupid automatic citizenship for children born in the US to illegals there goes some of the carrots. If we take away public schools and publicly funded health care programs there goes more carrots. I'm all for making their lives as uncomfortable as possible so they'll stay where they belong and maybe try to make their countries as great as America.
Some see this as a racial issue. Anyone who opposes allowing the illegals to stay is a "racist". Ooohhh, big bad "racist". I call Bull$hit. They broke the laws and now they have to pay. The same rules apply to Europeans and other fair skinned peoples. You wait your turn, that is, if you ever get a turn to become an American citizen. Also, a long, long time ago we had massive influxes of peoples from all over Europe. Back then America didn't have the laws and waiting periods we have today, so that arguement is dead. Those people weren't breaking the laws by coming over.
Now, I have a nice night to look forward to.  I'm tired of writing about this crap! |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: |
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A bit off topic, but I also notice that even your Dave's handle is in Spanish . . . Mexican Spanish nonetheless. Interesting.  |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
| Bobster I mentioned race b/c by accounts most (95%) illegals aren't white. |
I thought you were talking about Mexicans. They are white people. (Not that there's anything WRONG with that ...) Anyway, did you know that? You wanna start talking about race when you really mean culture, I'd suggest you understand what the words mean when you use them. Especially when you are the first person in a conversation about immigration to mention the word "race" as if it had any bearing on the discussion ...
Sorry, but once I figured out how out of touch you were with the concepts, I realized I had something better to do than read the rest of what you were saying. I know it's rude, but considering the cirumstances, can you blame me? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
| Bobster I mentioned race b/c by accounts most (95%) illegals aren't white. |
I thought you were talking about Mexicans. They are white people. |
Many (most?) of the Mexicans who enter the USA are actually not European..
This is why this whole illegal immigration thing is so good for Mexico, in the mind of the ruling European-descended Mexicans. They are exporting their "minority problem" to the USA. The European Mexicans often have it very good in Mexico.
I think you will find that European-descended Latin Americans are actually quite embarrassed of the "Indian" Mexicans. Racism is alive and kicking in South of Texas too. |
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
I am facinated by the idea that they should learn English but they shouldn't have any services in the meantime. You know that if Korea pulled this everyone would be in an upheavel. I have lived in Korea for 3 years and I find that I don't have time to learn Korean. I could imagine if I was an newcomer to America working long hours with other people in the same situation as me, that I wouldn't be learning much English either. Let's face it...even if I learned Korean to a intermediate level, I would still want to talk to people in my language just to be absolutely sure that everything is clear....
I have to go....post more later! |
Well you obviously speak enough korean to function or do you only go to stores, banks, doctors that speak english? Do you expect all korean people to speak english? Many korean doctors speak english because many graduated from med schools in countries where the primary language is english. And I dare say that a mastery of the english language is a prerequisite for admission to that school.
The rationale that we have multilingual workers in all facets of gov't, business etc is ridiculous. When you go to school should classes be held in spanish, thai, farsi etc. etc. etc. to match every non-english attendee?
Although the US has no "official" language the thought that we should have to accomodate every foreigh tongue is unrealistic. When in korea I don't expect koreans to speak english. I am in their country and have to abide by their language, laws, customs etc. The thought that every one should speak my language (when in their country, and when engish is not their primary language) is just a wee bit smug.
No one said that immigrants should never speak their language but to be successful in the US one must speak english in the same way to be sucessful as a doctor, lawyer, shipbuilder, chef etc. you must learn the terminology. A language is simply the terminology of a country.
As I stated earlier I would never slight anyone for wanting a better life for themselves or their families. That is percisely why my family came here in the early 1900's. But you must assimilate to the country. The USA is a nation of immigrants who have all contributed immensely to American technology, architecture etc. But I daresay that 99.9% of them spoke english. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| [Many (most?) of the Mexicans who enter the USA are actually not European.. |
Not everyone in europe is white.
| Quote: |
| Racism is alive and kicking in South of Texas too. |
Good job. Let's keep it alive and kicking everywhere. Why the hell not?
Sorry, but since "Yo!Chingo" brought the concept of race into the thing - which, by the way I am usually accused of doing - the whole discussion seems seems just a little, well, dumb. I'd like to be more polite about it, but sorry, I can't.
1. Some people don't seem to understand that Mexicans are the same race as the predominant bunch of people in America.
2. Race is not a factor in a discussion of immgration. Someone who is not The Bobster decided it is. In which case, you are inventing a race out of whole cloth merely in order to have someone to hate.
Personally, I'm glad I'm too lazy to go to that kind of work - strikes me as effort that would just to do something to display the ugliest parts of my brain. (Those are the parts of my brain I try not to rely on for clues about how the world is - good advice, someone gave it to me once, and maybe you could benefit, too, and hey, no charge,)
We've all been to college. We ought to be able to think a little better than this. Might be fun if we tried.
Last edited by The Bobster on Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Doutdes
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
I believe that children of American citizens who were born in the USA legally should have access to financial aid and higher paying jobs. It doesn't matter to me if their parent or parents committed crimes because their parents paid into the system that provides the opportunities...
In in my heart of hearts I don't believe that they should have the same scholarship opportunities as immigrants that waited their turn and have affirmative action on their side when applying to jobs. I don't believe in giving them those advantages.
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Sounds to me that you don't want to, and you don't want your kids to compete against the children of illegal immigrants. Apparently your kids should get preferential treatment because you're a citizen.
I find it interesting that you think that citizen's children should be given more opportunities because the parents have paid into the system. I was a welfare baby. And by the time the state paid for the hospital bills, foodstamps, welfare, etc., my parents certainly had not paid into the system to the same amount that I had received. It wasn't until my father finally got a union job at a factory that my family started paying back into the system. |
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
1. Some people don't seem to understand that Mexicans are the same race as the predominant bunch of people in America. |
Although I had never brought race into the issue I disagree that the predominant race of America is Hispanic
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
White persons, percent, 2005 (a) 80.2%
Black persons, percent, 2005 (a) 12.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2005 (a) 1.0%
Asian persons, percent, 2005 (a) 4.3%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2005 (a) 0.2%
Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2005 1.5%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2005 (b) 14.4% Mexicans would fall into this group.
White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2005 66.9% |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I disagree that the predominant race of America is Hispanic |
"Hispanic" is not a race. It's an adjective describing a group of people whose cultural values and mores differ from and in some ways excell the predominant Anglo-Saxon culture. It is what is called a subculture, not a race.
But to people who understand and care about what the word "race" means, in the sense of any actual meaning of the word, "hispanics" are consired "white." Not that there's anything WRONG with that, by the way ...
BUT that's the essence of the debate about immigration. People trying not to talk about racism while it is in fact filling their minds, then talking racist talk about people who are the same race as the poeple talking the racist talk. It's suitable for comedy, really. Except, in the end, it hurts America.
Last edited by The Bobster on Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:23 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I bow to your superior inteligence.
http://hispanic-research.com/home/faq.htm
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Why doesn't the census include Hispanic as a race?
The census does it right! Hispanic is NOT a race. There are many races within the Latino community, including White, Black, Native Indian, and even Asian. Some segments, like the Cuban community, show very few mixed-race individuals. In fact, Cubans exhibit a race discrimination behavior within their community that is similar to that of the general market. Other groups, like Puerto Ricans, are very mixed. Argentineans are mostly White and some Latin American countries, including Mexico, have a strong Native Indian background.
For years, however, the U.S. Census considered Hispanic a race. They have changed that definition since before the 1970 census and in 1977 the Office of Management and Budget issued the �Race and Ethnic Standards for Federal Statistics and Administrative Reporting�. They established the U.S. racial classifications to be American Indian, Alaskan Native, Asian or Pacific Islander, Black, and White. They added ethnic classifications of �Hispanic Origin� and �Not of Hispanic Origin�. Unfortunately, we continue to see the race question in most market research studies and marketers in this country continue to label Hispanic as a race.
The misconception that Hispanic is a race is so ingrained in this country that many Hispanics are confused themselves. This creates a big problem in marketing research, because many would check �Other� if �Hispanic� were not included in the race category. Yet, many Hispanics would check �White� or �Black� and not �Hispanic�, if �Hispanic� was included as a category. The answer is to divide the question like the census does and to pay close attention to how the questions are worded. |
However at least in my own little world I have no problems with LEGAL immigration.
Laws are laws not suggestions.
Yeah...one more thing, Anytime anyone makes a statement such as:
He's gay/black/white/mexican etc. and follows it up with "not that there's anything wrong with that." kinda conveys a lack of conviction and a desire to please everybody.  |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Nicco61 wrote: |
I bow to your superior inteligence.
http://hispanic-research.com/home/faq.htm
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Why doesn't the census include Hispanic as a race?
The census does it right! Hispanic is NOT a race. There are many races within the Latino community, including White, Black, Native Indian, and even Asian. Some segments, like the Cuban community, show very few mixed-race individuals. In fact, Cubans exhibit a race discrimination behavior within their community that is similar to that of the general market. Other groups, like Puerto Ricans, are very mixed. Argentineans are mostly White and some Latin American countries, including Mexico, have a strong Native Indian background.
For years, however, the U.S. Census considered Hispanic a race. They have changed that definition since before the 1970 census and in 1977 the Office of Management and Budget issued the �Race and Ethnic Standards for Federal Statistics and Administrative Reporting�. They established the U.S. racial classifications to be American Indian, Alaskan Native, Asian or Pacific Islander, Black, and White. They added ethnic classifications of �Hispanic Origin� and �Not of Hispanic Origin�. Unfortunately, we continue to see the race question in most market research studies and marketers in this country continue to label Hispanic as a race.
The misconception that Hispanic is a race is so ingrained in this country that many Hispanics are confused themselves. This creates a big problem in marketing research, because many would check �Other� if �Hispanic� were not included in the race category. Yet, many Hispanics would check �White� or �Black� and not �Hispanic�, if �Hispanic� was included as a category. The answer is to divide the question like the census does and to pay close attention to how the questions are worded. |
However at least in my own little world I have no problems with LEGAL immigration.
Laws are laws not suggestions.
Yeah...one more thing, Anytime anyone makes a statement such as:
He's gay/black/white/mexican etc. and follows it up with "not that there's anything wrong with that." kinda conveys a lack of conviction and a desire to please everybody. |
Actually, he is taking as empirical fact that there are some out there, not on this board of course, who do not share his belief that there is nothing wrong with that. I find that I have to do this when I speak of issues involving race, gender and sexual preference. I don't take it for granted that my entire audience shares, or even gets, my convictions.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.  |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Anytime anyone makes a statement such as:
He's gay/black/white/mexican etc. and follows it up with "not that there's anything wrong with that." kinda conveys a lack of conviction and a desire to please everybody. |
It's a reference to an old Seinfeld episode that basically makes fun of liberals. I'm a liberal, so I've always felt free to use a joke that mostly makes fun of myself.
Didn't realize the joke was so old that people don't pick up on it any more ... hey, I could give you references to Cheers, Taxi, even some guy named Archie Bunker - hours of fun for you to google and sift through the wikipededia ...
And, des, why do you insist on making me love you with every word you say? Please stop it. People are going to talk.
Not that there's anything WRONG with, you know, talking ...
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
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Anytime anyone makes a statement such as:
He's gay/black/white/mexican etc. and follows it up with "not that there's anything wrong with that." kinda conveys a lack of conviction and a desire to please everybody. |
It's a reference to an old Seinfeld episode that basically makes fun of liberals. I'm a liberal, so I've always felt free to use a joke that mostly makes fun of myself.
Didn't realize the joke was so old that people don't pick up on it any more ... hey, I could give you references to Cheers, Taxi, even some guy named Archie Bunker - hours of fun for you to google and sift through the wikipededia ...
And, des, why do you insist on making me love you with every word you say? Please stop it. People are going to talk.
Not that there's anything WRONG with, you know, talking ...
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I got the Seinfeld reference, and kind of assumed everyone else did, too. But I am afraid you are probably right. This generation will suffer irony deficiency if they don't start downloading this minute.
Yeah, at least for a while on the internet talk is still free. So are dreams. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, at least for a while on the internet talk is still free. So are dreams. |
Heard a rumor that dreams will start being regulated somewhere around August of next next year. Just a rumor, you know, just talk ... not that there's anything WRONG with talking ...
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Well I'll try not to be such a meathead the next time...
Isn't that the Seinfeld where he makes fun of just about every ethnic group? The one I remember is he is dating an American Indian girl and calls her an Indian Giver. |
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