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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Exceptions in grammar |
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| Why are there exceptions in grammar? |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Exceptions in grammar |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Why are there exceptions in grammar? |
They are there primarily to confuse the English learners.  |
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nobbyken
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Location: Yongin ^^
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Most rules have exceptions.
Some say, "It is the exception that proves the rule."
They also confuse the teachers at times! Hangul has many too. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah yeah  Just curious if anyone knows the origin of one exception. For example, why irregular verbs irregular. What is the origin of that? Why not all verbs just eat+ed? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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I can't give you a conclusive answer, but my best guess is that it is because English draws many of its words from other languages; some from German, some from French, Spanish etc. and the rules govering the formation of things like past tense are in some way related to what language the word came from.
Of course I may be totally wrong on this, but that's my 2 cents. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Calling Woland! Calling Woland! Come in, Woland! |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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There are exceptions in the English language because there is no one defining way of using a language that was built from so many different languages. When you have so many different people and cultures using a language, well, it is bound to evolve and adapt. Furthermore, when you take a melting pot country such as the United States and add in, oh I don't know, over 20 different cultures, well, you get a whole lot of varieties in English language usage. Look at Ebonics, chicano English, SAE, and the other pervasive forms of the language. And this is ALL IN ONE COUNTRY! FORGET ABOUT THE WORLD!
Also, consider the traditional prescriptivist vs. descriptivist dichotomy. In one camp, you have those that feel language should be static while others consider it to be dynamic. In some cases, language is considered to be a living entity. That is, an ever changing body that without nurture and care, would die.
English has been evolving since the early 1400's and will continue to do so long after we are gone. Just look at how far it has come in just 100 years! Imagine what it will be like in the year 2100! 
That was just a short summary; I don't feel like writing a long, drawn-out response right now. I tend to save those types of responses for heated debates in which I participate! 
Last edited by cubanlord on Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| Calling Woland! Calling Woland! Come in, Woland! |
haha. I was thinking the same damn thing!  |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
English has been evolving since the early 1400's and will continue to do so long after we are gone. Just look at how far it has come in just 100 years! Imagine what it will be like in the year 2100!
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I believe, English has been evolving for longer than the last 600 years. Old English came before Middle English, having been brought to England by the Anglo-Saxon migrations in the mid-5th century, and was influenced by indigenous Celtic languages and later by Norse. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language for a good summary. I think, what you're trying to say is that language continuously evolves.
As for the why and wherefore of regular vs. irregular verbs, Steven Pinker has researched this extensively. Rather than attempt to summarize what he says, I suggest you listen to him expound on it; he's a great speaker. Here is a video called "Words and Rules: The Ingredients of Language," hosted by MIT: http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/143/
ABOUT THE LECTURE:
Why does a three year-old say �I went,� then six months later start saying �I goed�? When you first heard the word �fax,� how did you know the past tense is �faxed�? And why is it that a baseball player is said to have �flied out,� but could never have �flown out�?
After fifteen years of studying words in history, in the laboratory, and in everyday speech, Steven Pinker has worked out the dynamic relationship � searching memory vs. following rules � that determines the forms our speech takes. In one of his final lectures at MIT Pinker gives the ultimate lecture on verbs, in a rich mixture of linguistics, cognitive neuroscience, and a surprising amount of humor. If you�ve ever wondered about the plural of Walkman, or why they are called the Toronto Maple Leafs and not Leaves, this lecture provides answers to these and other questions of modern language. |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| yeah, english is a mutt. it makes no sense. japanese (and more korean) actually make some sense, but then they are isolated and expected to learn stupid english. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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I would argue that the same thing has happened/ is happening to Korean.
There are thousands of sino-Korean words attesting to the influence of Chinese.
There are also words which seem to come from Japanese, I suppose they came during the Japanese "colonial" period.
And now there is a very strong influence of English ...hence the preponderance of Konglish in modern day Korean conversation.
There are also words that seem to be derived from Portuguese..
bbang- (bread)- pan for example.
A friend of mine whose hobby is linguistic musings has shown me a number of similarities between Korean and various European words and according to him there are a lot more than we first might think. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| cubanlord wrote: |
English has been evolving since the early 1400's and will continue to do so long after we are gone. Just look at how far it has come in just 100 years! Imagine what it will be like in the year 2100!
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I believe, English has been evolving for longer than the last 600 years. Old English came before Middle English, having been brought to England by the Anglo-Saxon migrations in the mid-5th century, and was influenced by indigenous Celtic languages and later by Norse. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language for a good summary. I think, what you're trying to say is that language continuously evolves.
As for the why and wherefore of regular vs. irregular verbs, Steven Pinker has researched this extensively. Rather than attempt to summarize what he says, I suggest you listen to him expound on it; he's a great speaker. Here is a video called "Words and Rules: The Ingredients of Language," hosted by MIT: http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/143/
ABOUT THE LECTURE:
Why does a three year-old say �I went,� then six months later start saying �I goed�? When you first heard the word �fax,� how did you know the past tense is �faxed�? And why is it that a baseball player is said to have �flied out,� but could never have �flown out�?
After fifteen years of studying words in history, in the laboratory, and in everyday speech, Steven Pinker has worked out the dynamic relationship � searching memory vs. following rules � that determines the forms our speech takes. In one of his final lectures at MIT Pinker gives the ultimate lecture on verbs, in a rich mixture of linguistics, cognitive neuroscience, and a surprising amount of humor. If you�ve ever wondered about the plural of Walkman, or why they are called the Toronto Maple Leafs and not Leaves, this lecture provides answers to these and other questions of modern language. |
My apologies. I should have been more specific. I reference the 1400's because that was the beginning of the pervasiveness of the English language in the world. That is, the start of the spread of English through colonization. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ah thank you. That answered my question. What is the genesis of some grammatical exceptions? Why are there some and not none?
A couple good examples.
Cat singular. Cats plural.
Ox singular. Oxen plural (not Oxs). Or Child/children. Or VAX/VAXen (an old hacker joke).
Why this exception? Ah answered in that first url:
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| The generalized plural marker became -s, but it still competed with -n. |
Another good one... why do some adjectives go after the noun, not before:
Accounts Payable and not Payable Accounts?
Again answered:
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| Although the popularity of French was decreasing, several words (around 10,000) were borrowed into English between 1250 and 1500 CE (though most of these words were Parisian rather than Norman French). Many of the words were related to government (sovereign, empire), law (judge, jury, justice, attorney, felony, larceny), social life (fashion, embroidery, cuisine, appetite) and learning (poet, logic, physician). Furthermore, the legal system retained parts of French word order (the adjective following the noun) in such terms as fee simple, attorney general and accounts payable. |
Thanks! I can sleep now. |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of plurals, does anyone know the plural of "mouse"? No, not the kind with the tail! A computer mouse.
"That store has a lot of computer ....... "
Mice? Mouses? Meese?? |
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