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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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The US is getting older. New immigrants can pay into social security and keep the US from getting hit with massive debt later on.
Furthermore the US benefits when talented people from other nations come to the US. I would think everyone ought to be thankful when skilled workers from countries like India come to the US since the US doesn't have enough of them. Indeed. The US ought to try to get as many doctors , engineers and scientists to come to the US as possible. |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| insam wrote: |
| the more 'illegals' the merrier. national boundaries are for cowards. ironically, the ones who want to enforce relative laws claim to be capitalists. am i missing something? capitalism=wild west. be careful who you vote for. |
I can't believe how many people miss this basic point. If capital is free to move globally, so should labor be free to. Capitalism requires "free labor". Hey we had a civil war over this one, and the slave owning south had to yield to the industrializing north. This was not a war of magnanimity, but one over, among other things, the transition between feudalism and capitalism. Individual freedom is the lynchpin of capitalist liberalism. International capitalism would seem to require internationally free labor. |
These people who are against illegal immigrant labor do not fear capitalism. They fight tooth and nail not to prevent Mexican labor from coming over here. In fact, that labor is needed. Those Mexicans stimulate the local economy greatly, which can be evidenced in some cities in Iowa and Indiana where tiny town have become boomtowns because of several factory and meatpacking plans that opened up, and who works there . . . you guessed it!
Some will argue (one particular paleoconservative commentator, can't remember his name) that there is a reason that Lady Liberty is in Ellis Island in the first place. It is there to welcome Western European immigrants. No one else. Most of Europe shares similar cultural values as the dominant white America ideology that we all are obligated to assimilate into (whether we have inherent white privilege, or not. As a result, it is easier for people of European descent to assimilate, while Mexicans, Asians, and even black folks who were forcibly removed hundreds of years ago still have tremendous difficulty. Nobody is crying foul, except those who wish for these "illegals" to go away.
Some people will also pull out the "grandfather card" to argue that "my grandfather was Irish, or Italian, or French, or German and he assimilated well; why can't these illegals do the same?" This oft-repeated ignorant remark misses one point. Assimilation is not something that occurs overnight. Let's take an Italian immigrant grandfather as an example. The Italian grandfather probably spoke English with difficulty and while that could be seen as remarkable improvement in his old age compared to not speaking any English upon arrival, but his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren speak English with no difficulty. And not only that, they have no problem abandoning their Italian heritage. They were never raised with an ancestral heritage to love and cherish and wish for others to do the same. (they only have in name only as they don't speak Italian). Some people can assimilate well, good on them if they can make that sacrifice. Others refuse because they hold their cultures dear.
So I call B.S. on the fear for Mexicans and other for refusing to assimilate. If assimilation means abandoning their customs, language and norms in order to adopt the dominant Eurocentric American culture that he or she cannot and will probably not be able to possess the proper cultural capital to do so successfully. I, for one being completely fluent in Spanish, and my wife being completely fluent in Korean, plan on teaching our children to value their ancestral heritage. And knowing their languages fluently is one good way.
I also call B.S. on the inability to speak English. We have to understand that most immigrants from Latin countries are relatively new, many have only been here less than 10 years (the undocumented ones at least). It takes time. Nobody here learns English overnight. They will need time.
It is not capitalism, or immigration, or crime even as proportionate to the number of American citizens, there are few illegal immigrants in prisons (few, but enough for anti-immigrant groups to sensationalize). It is a mixture of xenophobia, as well as a fear of a cultural upheaval or "silent revolution" that people argue is happening in the Southwest.
Yes, the signs are in both English and Spanish there. Yes there are radio stations, TV stations, magazines, newspapers, billboards, even the clothing labels on many articles of clothing have washing instructions in both English AND Spanish. What is happening? You guessed it. The torch of cultural dominance is getting passed from the old European to the Latin American now. Some people even joke that the American southwest is slowly getting rightfully returned to Mexico. Cultural upheaval! Oh no! Our country is committing cultural suicide, this is the end of our country as we know it! The Spanish said this once, the French said this once, Mexico (when it was bigger) said this once, the Native American Indians said this once. Our turn now? 
Let's recall what happened in Texas shall we? Texas was a European enclave in Mexico. When the Texans saw the grass was greener on the north, they didn't flee, they had a revolution! It was easier for them because their northern American neighbors were of European descent. America didn't object to Texas rebelling against the sovereignty of Mexico.
Will the same thing happen in the southwest now that there is a growing number of Mexicans expected to surpass all other groups by the year 2025? I personally don't think so. A Texas style upheaval was driven by economics. People from Mexico here came for a better life, something they couldn't find in Mexico (I also call B.S. on people who say they should go back to Mexico and make things better there instead. Duh! If they could, do you think they'd be here?) Let's say that Mexico becomes a green prosperous nation like Korea. Will the Mexicans return? Maybe a few of them. But what about the ones already here? If America is not as prosperous as Mexico someday (which will probably not happen) then you might have a revolution. Anyways, this speculation is really stretching the point.
The point is people do not fear the immigrants, they don't fear the fact that they are stealing their hog-slaughtering, strawberry picking jobs. They fear that which they don't want to know--the introduction of a foreign culture. I can point out as evidence the very fact that people like Yo!Chingo flat out refuse to know anything associated with Mexicans such as their Spanish language or the fact that she said that "these Mexicans are changing American culture to their liking." There are many people with these vitriolic sentiments who will only fish out the bad and sensationalize it while willfully ignoring the good. Yes. Change is coming. Our U.S. Congress acknowledges it is too strong a force to stop, they are coming, and they are generating lots of money for local economies--enough to want them to advertise in Spanish. Are there better solutions besides building the Great Wall of China on Mexico's border like Pat Buchanan suggested years ago? I'd like to think so, maybe. But I fail to see them being here as catastrophic.
"But they are breaking the law, the law is the law!" This is perhaps the weakest excuse ever, and it is very common to see anti-immigration proponents play this B.S. card. They are lawbreakers; therefore they are criminals; therefore they are evil and should not be allowed citizenship in this country. Do you see what is wrong with this logic? If this is your measuring stick, then we are all criminals. I am a criminal for going 35 mph in a 30 mph zone. I am a criminal for failing to file my taxes in 1993; I am a criminal for putting pennies on a railroad track. Does this make me evil? By this definition I am. They are breaking the law, but I refuse to believe these people are evil as a result; playing the law card is an absurd fallacy.
During the Clinton years when times were good and there was no recession, very few people were vocal about limiting immigration. You gotta blame everything on someone (even the earthquakes
 ) It's common to blame all of America's problems on illegal immigration during a recession. We have one now, and this is why this issue is making its rounds and louder than ever.
Last edited by merkurix on Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:49 am; edited 3 times in total |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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As the OP of this string I would like to congratulate and thank the participants on the civil tone and quality of discourse.
cbc |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| As the OP of this string I would like to congratulate and thank the participants on the civil tone and quality of discourse. |
Oh, go off in a corner and stick it up your ass.
Just kidding! Come on, really - honestly, I was just thinking the same thing. I think I might even agree with half of Joo's post and that only happens about once in every 12 years ...
Smiles, especially to merkurix. Lotta work went into that post, and a fair amount of heart as well. Very nice. Lots to chew on, though I don't agree with everything there, there's a lot that just might keep people talking.
And Yo!chingo, I think I heard you say somewhere here (or elsewhere) that your username was chosen from the Korean word for "friend." That word is best written in English by "chingu," and I'm pretty sure the word you have instead in Mexican Spanish refers to the action most of us in English use the "f" word to describe, as in "Chingo tu madre, hijo de puta.".
Therefore, you are either severely mistaken, or you are a chingo-ing liar.
Smiles.
Bob. |
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