Korean Job Discussion Forums

[crazy_arcade]

Just want to double check on this rule.

That

"I like music that is loud."

--I only like loud music. I don't like music that isn't loud.

Which

"I like music, which is fun."

--I think all music is fun.

So "that" will denote some information that is of more importance, right?

[yawarakaijin]

Bascially what we are talking about is which adjective clause marker is correct.


I have a dog that likes to play

This is an example of an adjective clause. That likes to play is only describing this one particular dog. It's therefore called a RESTRICTED ADJECTIVE CLAUSE. THAT is the correct choice of adjective clause markers for restricted adjective clauses.


Families, which are the basic unit of society, are spending more time separated.

Here the adjective clause is non-restricted as it is not describing any one family in particular. For a non-restricted clause WHICH is the correct marker to use.

For restricted adjective clauses the use of that is generally accepted in every situation.

I have a dog that likes people
People that hit dogs are bad
Joe is a man that likes dogs

NOTE: For People and Joe, you could use WHO but THAT is also commonly used

To create a non-strictive clause you should never use THAT because merely by using THAT you restrict the clause.

Elephants that live in Africa are dangerous. = African elephants are dangerous and only African elephants are dangerous.

Elephants, which live in Africa, are dangerous. = Elephants (some of which are found in Africa) are dangerous. All elephants are dangerous.



I don't have the actual meta-language but I find another difference in how we percieve the use of which and that.

I have a boss that is crazy.
That is crazy is only describing your boss.

I have a boss, which is crazy, because I usually work alone.
Which is crazy describes the entire situation of having a boss, not merely the boss himself. The boss is NOT CRAZY just because YOU are use to working alone.


Complex sentences:

I have a boss that is crazy because I put drugs in his coffee when he is not looking.

In a comlex sentence if you were to remove the restricted adjective clause the entire sentence would fail to make sense or lose it's intended meaning.

example: I have a boss because I put drugs in his coffee when he is not looking.


In a complex sentence the non-restrictive clause can be removed without affecting comprehension.

Australian dingos, which are known to eat small children, are often feared by the local populace.

Australian dingos are often feared by the local populace.

So basically just ask your students is the adjective clause necessary to understand the gist of the sentence. If it is..use THAT.

If its "bonus" information they should use WHICH.

[Wangja]

Isn't "which" normally preceded by a comma?

[icnelly]

[indytrucks]

G-R-A-M-M-A-R

For Christ's sake.

[crazy_arcade]

[littlelisa]

At first I thought the misspelling in the title was a joke.

[The Cosmic Hum]

hmm...for what it is worth...it is not a prescriptive rule to use a comma with which... which can be used in both restrictive and non restrictive clauses...which is deemed more formal than that...that is far more common...and as mentioned above...more often used in restrictive clauses.
It is the comma that indicates restrictiveness.
I like music which is loud. - restrictive - (I only like loud music)
I like music, which is loud. (..all music is loud)

For some writers...that is too common...and prefer which...even in restictive clauses.
As for me...it's all good.

[Freaka]

Yawarakaijin, thanks for the mini grammar lesson! Appreciate it!

[robot]

put simply:

1. use "which" before a comma
2. use "that" any other time
3. use nothing if possible -- "that" is a boring bridge word can be eliminated 90% of the time.

[yawarakaijin]

Can you tell I have a lot of free time on my hands?

[insam]