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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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I read the article but questioned it's tone, it already seems to be biased. As soon as I saw the author's info at the very bottom of the article, its credibility simply doesn't hold water:
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| Black Commentator Columnist David A. Love is an attorney based in Philadelphia, and a contributor to the Progressive Media Project and McClatchy-Tribune News Service. |
I don't take sides, but I do question the credibility as well as the neutrality of sources. Just like I can write off certain articles as conservative drivel, I will likewise write this article's credibility off as liberal drivel. Bah. Question everything my friends. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| merkurix wrote: |
I read the article but questioned it's tone, it already seems to be biased. As soon as I saw the author's info at the very bottom of the article, its credibility simply doesn't hold water:
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| Black Commentator Columnist David A. Love is an attorney based in Philadelphia, and a contributor to the Progressive Media Project and McClatchy-Tribune News Service. |
I don't take sides, but I do question the credibility as well as the neutrality of sources. Just like I can write off certain articles as conservative drivel, I will likewise write this article's credibility off as liberal drivel. Bah. Question everything my friends. |
The direct quote from the Pope says it all, no need for further condemnation or critique, so attacking the messenger is not really a solid option here.
And by the way, it is not required that a person that promotes tolerance be tolerant of intolerance. Awkward wording but that's the gist of it. |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Well some can argue that it's not the first time (and perhaps not the last) that the Pope's remarks have been taken out of context (in very much the same way I can say that your sig is a very conservative statement. Out of context?) It's been done before. Remember when the Pope quoted a medieval Byzantine Emperor's words from a text about Islam being a religion of violence? People still believe those are his own true words and beliefs, when in fact he was addressing an audience of academic intellectuals at the German University of Regensburg, who concur that his lecture was not meant to be offensive. This should be considered.
By the way, I do not see a direct quote by the Pope anywhere in that article where he says this. He is indirectly quoted by Love. I'm not denying he could have said this. Also, the article says that "millions are offended" by his remarks. Currently, I fail to find any additional articles anywhere that addresses this "raging controversy" in Latin America. I am disinclined to believe (without proof anyways) that there are still "millions" of people who practice indigenous religious beliefs. If anything, most Latin Americans (if not almost all of them) are Roman Catholics and may not have reason to feel offended at all. All I am doing is questioning the source, not the original poster of the source. It was not my intention to shoot the messenger; if you felt targeted, sorry about that.
Last edited by merkurix on Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Oh and:
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| And by the way, it is not required that a person that promotes tolerance be tolerant of intolerance. Awkward wording but that's the gist of it |
I agree with this wholeheartedly. But one thing is to be tolerant of intolerance, and another thing is to be intolerant of those whose beliefs differ from one's own. One can bash the Pope if one so wishes. But (as is the case most of the time with these kinds of threads) the bashing of the Roman Catholic leader later turns out into a vitriolic diatribe against all Roman Catholics (who may not necessarily agree with the pope's position) who do not deserve to be offended in such a way. This is akin to having a thread that bashes on Louis Farrakhan where it later spills out to bashing on all black Muslims. Tolerant? Probably not. Slice it how you will, I see this as nothing more than classic and offensive intolerance.
Last edited by merkurix on Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| My bad, read it too quick, seems it is an indirect quote, though I fail to see how that makes the statements any less disgusting. The article is not, as you seem to think, taking those quotes out of context. Plenty of context is provided. Neither does questioning the exact amount of people practicing ethnic religion to do anything to lessen the effect of the Pope's statements. One should not have to reach a certain percentage of the population before one gets treated with decency and respect. Seems you're looking for ways to downplay the severity of the Pope's words by attacking the credibility of the source and some statistics. I don't think you've been effective though, as the Pope's own words are clear cut and extremely damning of himself and the attitude of his whole organization. His quote remains for me a clear expression of the monsterous spiritual arrogance at the heart of organised montheism in general and Catholocism specifically. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| I searched for quite a while yesterday to try to find the direct quote after reading the article in the op but couldn't find it. You know, that could be an idea for a new Wikimedia project, one that keeps a record of everything public figures have said. I can't judge how controversial the remarks were until I read it myself, for example. |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| My bad, read it too quick, seems it is an indirect quote, though I fail to see how that makes the statements any less disgusting. The article is not, as you seem to think, taking those quotes out of context. Plenty of context is provided. Neither does questioning the exact amount of people practicing ethnic religion to do anything to lessen the effect of the Pope's statements. One should not have to reach a certain percentage of the population before one gets treated with decency and respect. Seems you're looking for ways to downplay the severity of the Pope's words by attacking the credibility of the source and some statistics. I don't think you've been effective though, as the Pope's own words are clear cut and extremely damning of himself and the attitude of his whole organization. His quote remains for me a clear expression of the monsterous spiritual arrogance at the heart of organised montheism in general and Catholocism specifically. |
And it seems you are taking egregiously biased material at face value: hook, line and sinker. Then again, anyone can believe what they want I suppose and not have to be bashed for it, right?  Again, I am not doubting he may have said this. It is not my intention to downplay anyone's comments. I am just reporting what I see, and what I have found is not a credible source. A biased writer will of course make certain comments appear more severe than intended. I am simply reporting that this is simply put and in the most neutral composure possible, nowhere near a credible news source; just the personal comments and reflections of a liberal commentator who begins his article with "millions are offended." I simply don't buy it. I cannot imagine indigenous folks rioting over this at all (in contrast to the more famous Islamic condemnations worldwide a couple of years ago). But that is just me.
The question is not what the pope said or didn't say. It's been done before, so it won't be hard to imagine it happening again and it won't be hard for some people to not be surprised if it does. It is possible. But the real question is how certain information is presented. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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merkurix
| Quote: |
he was addressing an audience of academic intellectuals at the German University of Regensburg, who concur that his lecture was not meant to be offensive. This should be considered.
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As a world leader, head of a church of over one billion people he should be more aware of the effects of his words. He incensed muslims and in retaliation innocent catholics were murdered in muslim countries. This was after the Danish cartoon fiasco so he should have been aware of how inflammatory his remarks could be. It's also worth bearing in mind that previous to this he had a reputation for being strongly anti-muslim and opposed to Turkey's joining the EU on that account.
Remember this is the guy whose nickname in the vatican was 'God's rottweiller'.
He's also a former nazi.
Anybody see a pattern here? |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Pope reveals monsterous arrogance... |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
During his recent trip to Latin America, Pope Benedict XVI offended millions when he arrogantly suggested that Catholicism had purified indigenous populations, and called the resurgence of indigenous religions a step backward.
http://alternet.org/story/54407/ |
This pope is a major ahole. |
The office of the papacy is pure crud, regardless of who holds the position... |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
| He's also a former nazi. |
Since joining the Hitler Youth was required by all his age at the time, that's no more damning than saying that "He's also a former student."
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| Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth � membership being legally required after December 1939[4] � but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings[5]. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith. In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics. In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year. |
http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/topics/new_pope_defied_nazis.htm |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Since joining the Hitler Youth was required by all his age at the time, that's no more damning than saying that "He's also a former student." |
However, normal students are not indoctrinated into Nazi policies of racial superiority. Students are not then employed to support a Nazi state. While the idea of the pope stepping up to volunteer for the Hitler Youth is more onerous, one still has great pause in thinking the leader of the Catholic Church was indoctrinated during his formative years by the twisted ideas of the Nazis. Kurt Waldheim tried to downplay a lot of his Nazi past. Given that, one remains skeptical as to the full accounting of the pope's activities during those years. |
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prettyinscarlet777
Joined: 29 May 2007
Location: masan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I used to be a Catholic. It's a religion full of doctrines created by man and the devil. It teaches outward religion not inward change through Jesus Christ. It leads many into bondage. The pope is not infallible. Mary is not our mediator. What nonsense. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| monstrous. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| prettyinscarlet777 wrote: |
| I used to be a Catholic. It's a religion full of doctrines created by man and the devil. It teaches outward religion not inward change through Jesus Christ. It leads many into bondage. The pope is not infallible. Mary is not our mediator. What nonsense. |
You're on thin ice when you claim some aspect of religion is nonsense, when you believe what many would call nonsense. It is nonsense a man comes back from the dead. It is nonsense to think the devil is writing church doctrine. Have you not stopped to consider the devil, not god, is speaking to you? Fooling you in abandoning the holy mother church and then the devil is going to set you up for a nice, long fall? |
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cosmo
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Have you not stopped to consider the devil, not god, is speaking to you? |
You may have a point there.
Some hot red horny guy with a big fork is gonna plunge it up yo' ass.
Baste you, rotate you on a rotisserie grill at max heat.
What a concept.
Kentucky Fried Retard
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2306/mm2avatartb0.jpg |
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