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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I understand Clinton pardoned people, but this stuff relates to outing a CIA agent, a person who was part of a team of people who misled people into going into a war and did whatever they could to try to spin things so the American people would accept sending their sons into harm's way. We are talking about actions that led to the death of thousands of American soldiers and launching into a war that has made Afghanistan so far a failure because there aren't enough troops to go there. I wasn't a fan of Clinton's pardons, either like that of Marc Rich as a favour for a donor's wife and Israeli friends. The government is getting worse and worse. I don't think people have much faith at all in government.
Bush will follow the constitution to try to get away from accountability. He hasn't acted respectable of the concepts of life and liberty... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I offer no "justification" of anything. The American Constitution explictly grants the President this authority. And he does not have to explain himself to anyone when he exercises it.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:28 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I would hope most people are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and come up with the reason Bush did what he did.
Kuros did it.
I did it.
You can do it too. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Imbroglio wrote: |
| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| Nobless Oblige |
Most liberals live in a form of denial. They don't like the real world. They don't want to live in the real world. They would much rather live in a make-believe world where everything goes their way. If they don't convince themselves that they DO live in this make-believe world already, they will strive to make this 'utopia' come about for real. Most, upon being rudely awakened by reality, will express outrage, indignation, and a profound sense of hurt that the world would be so cruel as to shatter their illusions.
Most liberals are, at some level, angry. It's easy to tweak a liberal's nerves. Usually it takes just a t-shirt slogan, bumper sticker, or sentence in a conversation they're not even part of to set them off on a screeching diatribe. Many liberals are consumed by their anger, existing for nothing more than lashing out at what they perceive to be the cause of that anger.
While they claim to be the tolerant, understanding sort, they are more often filled with hatred of anyone who does not conform to their ideals. They hate the nation that gives them the conveniences and liberties they enjoy so much, they hate the people and ideals that made this nation the best in the world, and many of them even hate themselves. If we could understand the source of their anger and loathing, self- or otherwise, it would go a long way to understanding what makes a liberal tick. Possible cause for the anger: they don't get their way, so they throw a temper tantrum like a three year old. In fact, immaturity is a major hallmark of liberals.
 [/img] |
After they finished wetting their beds, some of the nation's editorialists had this to say about the latest Bush abmonination . . .  
Seattle Post-Intelligencer: �President Bush�s commutation of a pal�s prison sentence counts as a most shocking act of disrespect for the U.S. justice system. It�s the latest sign of the huge repairs to American concepts of the rule of law that await the next president.�
The Denver Post found that �such big-footing of other branches of government is not unprecedented with this administration. The president�s abuse of signing statements show his disrespect for Congress� power to make law. His insistence that terror detainees at Guantanamo Bay be denied Habeas Corpus rights mocks legal tradition. It�s a shame that his actions in the Libby affair will add to that list. Libby should be held accountable for his crimes.�
San Francisco Chronicle: �In commuting the sentence of former White House aide Lewis �Scooter� Libby, President Bush sent the message that perjury and obstruction of justice in the service of the president of the United States are not serious crimes.�
The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel�s editorial declares that �mostly this commutation fails on the most basic premise. There was no miscarriage of justice in Libby�s conviction or his sentence. The trial amply demonstrated that he stonewalled. Like President Clinton�s 11th-hour pardons of an ill-deserving few, this commutation is a travesty.�
New York�s Daily News: �However misbegotten was the probe by special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, the fact is that Libby did commit a federal crime and the fact is also that he was convicted in a court of law. Thankfully, Bush did not pardon Libby outright, but time in the slammer was in order. Sixty days, say, wouldn�t have hurt the justice system a bit.�
Chicago Tribune believes that �in nixing the prison term, Bush sent a terrible message to citizens and to government officials who are expected to serve the public with integrity. The way for a president to discourage the breaking of federal laws is by letting fairly rendered consequences play out, however uncomfortably for everyone involved. The message to a Scooter Libby ought to be the same as it is for other convicts: You do the crime, you do the time.�
The Arizona Republic: �We thought Scooter Libby was going through the criminal justice system. Just like anyone else. Then, President Bush whipped out a get-out-of-jail-free card. This is the wrong game to play on a very public stage.�
San Jose Mercury News: �Other presidents have doled out pardons and the like, usually on the way out of office. It�s never pretty. But few have placed themselves above the law as Bush, Cheney and friends repeatedly have done by trampling civil liberties and denying due process. Chalk up another point for freedom. Scooter�s, at least.�
The Sacramento Bee: President Bush, a recent story in the Washington Post tells us, is obsessed with the question of how history will view him. He has done himself no favors on that count by commuting the prison term of I. Lewis �Scooter� Libby.�
The Dallas Morning News: �Perhaps the president felt he had nothing left to lose, given his unpopularity. But considering how much trouble the White House faces in regard to congressional subpoenas, the last thing this president needed was to further antagonize Capitol Hill regarding abuse of executive power.� |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it is fine to argue the merits of the pardon.
But, to question the authority of it is pure ignorance.
Thr presidential power to pardon is not "above the law"
it is well "within the law".
Look at some of Carters pardons and ask why?
Many of those are are very puzzling.
Clinton's pardons are all rather obvious.
Even Reagan made some odd pardons. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have problems with Bush granting pardons...no problem at ALL. But it seems to me that obstructing justice, lying to FBI agents and a GRAND JURY isn't something that should go without punishment. I'm not sure that my opinion is a particularly partisan one.
I mean, just take away, or change the context and certainly Republicans would agree that lying to a grand jury is pretty fucking bad. |
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cranura
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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I have no problem with the provision of pardoning granted to the President of the United States.
I do, however, have a problem with people not remembering that this is politics as usual, regardless of who is running the White House or, for that matter, the legislature. The system continues.
Somehow the fourth estate with the rabidity of the blogging world (the newly impowered third estate) has thrust down the throats of the international community that this man ("Libby") represents the highest official indicted, etc., etc., since Nixon's time. Poppycock. Does no one remember the Secretary of HUD under Bill Clinton? Henry Cisneros? Or the lying under oath of Bill Clinton or Sandy Berger? Just because these men plea bargained to obtain lesser fines and punishment does not mean that they were "not guilty."
Sad to say, but the loud voices on the opposite sides of the aisle in American politics do nothing but confirm that corruption has been and will continue to be a part of government in the USA. Is the corruption as bad as what exists in, say, Chad, Bangladesh, Haiti, Myanmar or Turkmenistan?** Certainly not. But it is safe to say that it much worse than is seen in countries such as Iceland, New Zealand, Denmark, Singapore or Sweden.*+
* Transparency Int'l's 2006 list of corruption in governments.
**The bottom five (most corrupt).
*+ The top five (least corrupt).
Last edited by cranura on Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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If as Walton says he must serve jail time to qualify for supervised release, then one day in jail should suffice. Since a day is legally defined as a day or any part thereof - so five minutes is all that's needed.
By the way his crime was nut treason but perjury - exactly the same thing that Slick Willy Clinton was disbarred and lost a civil cae for.
Get off the pot fellas the only thing you are upset about is not getting your pound of flesh.
Somebody wrtoe about impeachment - Libby is not impeachable. Bush
may be but even that is doubtful - using a constitutional prerogative is not "a crime or misdemeanot".
Get over it and quitcerbitchen
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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By the way his crime was nut treason but perjury - exactly the same thing that Slick Willy Clinton was disbarred and lost a civil cae for.
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And did slick willy get punished? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Slick willy was not punished criminally for anything. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| cranura wrote: |
I have no problem with the provision of pardoning granted to the President of the United States.
I do, however, have a problem with people not remembering that this is politics as usual, regardless of who is running the White House or, for that matter, the legislature. The system continues.
Somehow the fourth estate with the rabidity of the blogging world (the newly impowered third estate) has thrust down the throats of the international community that this man ("Libby") represents the highest official indicted, etc., etc., since Nixon's time. Poppycock. Does no one remember the Secretary of HUD under Bill Clinton? Henry Cisneros? Or the lying under oath of Bill Clinton or Sandy Berger? |
Yes, Clinton was a cad. Granted, Libby isn't jack. As noted earlier, he's a symbolic pound of flesh. There are plenty of things to get Bush on, let's not waste credibility on some partisan hack.
Worse than Libby are the Clinton pardons--especially the FALN crew. But worst of all is Caspar "Jerk-***" Weinberger, part of the Nixon-Reagan pipeline and former CEO of Bechtel. This guy was pardoned by 41 after only being indicted, so as to avoid any dirt he'd divulge on the President himself. He wasn't even convicted of anything. This case, IMNSHO, is worse that any other. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, well I read these and I understand why it is in place. What I don't understand why it is still there when it is obviously being abused by pretty much every president. I'm not american so I can't change it. If I was it would be a factor on who I vote for. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cranura wrote: |
I have no problem with the provision of pardoning granted to the President of the United States.
I do, however, have a problem with people not remembering that this is politics as usual, regardless of who is running the White House or, for that matter, the legislature. The system continues.
Somehow the fourth estate with the rabidity of the blogging world (the newly impowered third estate) has thrust down the throats of the international community that this man ("Libby") represents the highest official indicted, etc., etc., since Nixon's time. Poppycock. Does no one remember the Secretary of HUD under Bill Clinton? Henry Cisneros? Or the lying under oath of Bill Clinton or Sandy Berger? Just because these men plea bargained to obtain lesser fines and punishment does not mean that they were "not guilty."
Sad to say, but the loud voices on the opposite sides of the aisle in American politics do nothing but confirm that corruption has been and will continue to be a part of government in the USA. Is the corruption as bad as what exists in, say, Chad, Bangladesh, Haiti, Myanmar or Turkmenistan?** Certainly not. But it is safe to say that it much worse than is seen in countries such as Iceland, New Zealand, Denmark, Singapore or Sweden.*+
* Transparency Int'l's 2006 list of corruption in governments.
**The bottom five (most corrupt).
*+ The top five (least corrupt). |
I thought the "third estate" referred to the Judiciary.
The first estate - The Executive
The second estate - The Legislature
The third estate - The Judiciary
The fourth estate - The Press
The fifth estate - The Masses
I've never heard of blogging as an estate, they would be if anything
another aspect of the fourth estate, in league with the written media,
and the broadcast media. Blogging is in all actuality only a part of the
written press with an aspect of broadcasting or upon closer examination
narrow-casting.
Just a nit to pick. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Location: at my wit's end
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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So Bush now has destroyed any checks and balances that existed prior to his presidency--formerly three branches of government, but now only one with any power. And he's managed to garner the lowest approval rating of any president in US history. Not bad for a good ol' boy from Texas.
Telling the American people to kick him out or to "make" Bush "un"pardon is like telling the Brits to oust the Queen. Any notion that the American people as individuals can influence their government is both naive and illusory. |
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