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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| To be honest, Bramble, I've haven't followed this war very closely. These heated, back-and-forth posts exasperate me, and I just want them to stop. I don't see any good coming out of them. I'm not keeping score, or taking sides. I was arguing, in the abstract, about loving behaviour in the face of a perceived wrong. Please don't worry about my opinion of you. |
I understand that people can't be expected to follow every exchange of insults on the Internet or remember who started it. Unfortunately, I'm afraid many posters tend to assume that a statement must be true if it keeps appearing over and over again. And of course The Bobster knows that all too well.
Your words are very wise, but unfortunately they're not applicable to every situation - and this is one case where a nice, friendly approach won't work. I've exhausted every possible solution. About all I can do at this point is drop in every so often with a friendly public service announcement to remind any lurkers or bystanders that they're dealing with a pathological liar. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| To be honest, Bramble, I've haven't followed this war very closely. These heated, back-and-forth posts exasperate me, and I just want them to stop. I don't see any good coming out of them. I'm not keeping score, or taking sides. I was arguing, in the abstract, about loving behaviour in the face of a perceived wrong. Please don't worry about my opinion of you. |
I understand that people can't be expected to follow every exchange of insults on the Internet or remember who started it. Unfortunately, I'm afraid many posters tend to assume that a statement must be true if it keeps appearing over and over again. And of course The Bobster knows that all too well.
Your words are very wise, but unfortunately they're not applicable to every situation - and this is one case where a nice, friendly approach won't work. I've exhausted every possible solution. About all I can do at this point is drop in every so often with a friendly public service announcement to remind any lurkers or bystanders that they're dealing with a pathological liar. |
It's 2:20 am here in Winnipeg. I tried to go to bed, but I found that I was a) hungry, b) cold, and c) thinking a lot about what has been said on both sides by Bramble and Bobster. Bramble, I don't know you very well, so I wouldn't presume to advise you, so it surprised me that you had read my "wise words" and tried to take them to heart. I'm happy that you at least considered it.
As I lay in bed, I thought about two similarities in what you and the Bobster have said. You've both pledged to point to each other and continually object to the other's behaviour, and you've both accused the other person of lying.
I have enough respect for both parties to suspect that neither of you are lying. There have been some misunderstandings and disagreements, but I doubt either of you would actually make things up. I think both of you are being quite sincere.
Oh yeah, and I just recognized another similarity. You've both used the other person's unpleasantness as justification to go on being unpleasant. Because you both feel wronged, you both plan to go on pointing out the other's shortcomings and you are both apparently committed to staying the course, this doesn't look like it's going to blow over soon. I would hate to see this go on, so I'm going to make a couple suggestions, based on the aforementioned Sunshine Policy. *TWEET* (I'm putting on my referee cap for a moment.)
Bobster believes that he and his wife, his dead mother, his boyhood dog, etc., have been insulted. I suggest that Bramble say the following:
"Bobster, it wasn't my intention to insult you or your loved ones. If you would point out how that happened, I would be happy to clarify. I'm sorry for offending you."
Bramble did not appreciate the private messages or the ongoing prompting when she indicated she didn't want to continue the argument. I suggest that Bobster say the following:
"Bramble, I'm sorry if you felt pestered/hassled. I do want to sort this out with you at some point, but maybe I misjudged the timing. When you're ready to talk this over, I would be happy to do that."
I hope that you'll both give each other the benefit of the doubt, because I don't believe that either party, deep-down, is all that unreasonable or nasty. Things have gotten ugly, but they don't have to stay that way. I haven't read the threads closely enough to tally the wounds on either side, but as a general guide, I want to say this--
Don't be quick to judge the other person's motives or true character. What you read/hear/feel may not be what's intended.
Temper justice with mercy.
If you want an apology, offer one first, even if you didn't mean to offend. Chances are you haven't behaved perfectly, and there's no harm or shame in being humble (even if it doesn't work out, you'll have solace in the moral high ground.)
p.s. I hope this isn't inappropriate. If it is, please say so.
p.p.s. I know you're both skeptical about this "love changes things" but consider this-- I'm disagreeing with you and challenging you, but you still feel supported and respected, and you're actually paying attention (even if you don't agree.) If I were choosing my words less carefully, I would have a lot less credibility, even if my message were the same. |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Kermo,
They could use you in the mideast. That last post was negotiating at its finest. If neither party can man (woman) up and get past this, then I say its their loss. I hope Bramble and the Bobster can bury the hatchet because at this point I'm sick of seeing this thread at the top of the off-topic forum especially since this thread has gone on a seriously wild tangent.
Let's shake hands and agree to disagree and move on...Do it for Kermo!
Alyallen |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| newton kabiddles wrote: |
| How long has Quiznos been in the Hongdae area? |
Do you like it better than Subway?
In my experience, some American chains are decent in Korea, and some are ridiculously overpriced. TGI Fridays is exorbitant. I paid 20k for frozen peas a some fish that would be 4k at a Korean place.
Which Western chains don't rip you off? |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
Don't be quick to judge the other person's motives or true character. What you read/hear/feel may not be what's intended.
Temper justice with mercy.
If you want an apology, offer one first, even if you didn't mean to offend. Chances are you haven't behaved perfectly, and there's no harm or shame in being humble (even if it doesn't work out, you'll have solace in the moral high ground.) |
You are beautiful, Kermo.
But, I would challenge you still... You should feel no need to be on moral high ground. The fact is, no one judges you but yourself; and through eternity of choices and chances, you cannot but have traveled all the roads, high and low, mundane and exceptional. When this is not just an idea but an immediate and visceral truth that you can feel in your guts, then you begin to understand equality and unconditional love.
Warmest regards,
Arjuna |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| -I love women-haters. More chicks for me! And I always pay on dates! |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| About all I can do at this point is drop in every so often with a friendly public service announcement to remind any lurkers or bystanders that they're dealing with a pathological liar. |
Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:18 am
| Quote: |
| He's a liar, and I really feel the need to point that out so decent people like you don't get the wrong impression |
kermo:
| Quote: |
| As I lay in bed, I thought about two similarities in what you and the Bobster have said. You've both pledged to point to each other and continually object to the other's behaviour, and you've both accused the other person of lying |
Bramble, on THIS THREAD:
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:31 pm :
I hate white, aging-hippy threadjackers who smoke and post insults along with irrelevant nonsense about their [b]spouses, mothers and dogs [/b] |
Bramble likes to HATE, She likes to hate so very much that she will extend the hate not only to the target of her derision but also she will hate people and being loved by that person. That is so ugly I have no words at this moment.
And then she calls me a liar. There is so much more I can say that I am restraining myself from now.
Done with you. Go on asking mods to silence people you don'tagree with, while you insult the family members of people YOU do not agree with. Oh, please, continue. Make yourself look exactly as stupid and bigoted as you are. Please, do. Go on.
I wash my hands of you. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Kermo and Alyallen, thanks for trying to help. Kermo, please don't lose any more sleep over this! I'm a little busy today, but I'll send you a PM later addressing what you've said. In the meantime, enjoy your vacation.
P.S. - I hope Manitoba is warming up ... I'm surprised it's cold there in the middle of July?! |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
Kermo and Alyallen, thanks for trying to help. Kermo, please don't lose any more sleep over this! I'm a little busy today, but I'll send you a PM later addressing what you've said. In the meantime, enjoy your vacation.
P.S. - I hope Manitoba is warming up ... I'm surprised it's cold there in the middle of July?! |
It's not bad, but I sure don't have any sweaters or socks with me, and am having to borrow them. At least the thunderstorms and tornados stopped before I got there (I knew they would.) |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Uh oh Bobster! I think this was one of those times you love to talk of, when a wise woman knows better than you. Perhaps you should take the 4.5 minutes (the time you say you usually need) to realise that Kermo is right, and reconsider.  |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Anger bewilders the intelligence. In the quote that "the Bobster" uses to highlight "Bramble's" extension of hate to not only him but to his loved ones, it should be clear to any reasonable person that he is the sole target of her (rational or irrational) anger - not his loved ones.
She states that she hates "white, aging-hippie threadjackers..." [hey - that could be referring to me...  ] "who smoke" [not me!  ] and post insults [and who post] irrelevant nonsense ("about their spouses, mothers, and dogs.")
I put parentheses around "spouses, mothers, and dogs" because it clearly is a parenthetical phrase. The target of her hate is the person who posts insults and irrelevant nonsense - the objects of the verb "posts" - not the phrase qualifying what type of irrelevant nonsense...
I'm sure that excessive anger has probably also clouded "Bramble's" intelligence also ... |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Anger bewilders the intelligence. In the quote that "the Bobster" uses to highlight "Bramble's" extension of hate to not only him but to his loved ones, it should be clear to any reasonable person that he is the sole target of her (rational or irrational) anger - not his loved ones.
She states that she hates "white, aging-hippie threadjackers..." [hey - that could be referring to me... ] "who smoke" [not me! ] and post insults [and who post] irrelevant nonsense ("about their spouses, mothers, and dogs.")
I put parentheses around "spouses, mothers, and dogs" because it clearly is a parenthetical phrase. The target of her hate is the person who posts insults and irrelevant nonsense - the objects of the verb "posts" - not the phrase qualifying what type of irrelevant nonsense...
I'm sure that excessive anger has probably also clouded "Bramble's" intelligence also ... |
I'm with your analysis on this, Rteacher. The 'hate' is directed at the poster of the nonsense in this example. She doesn't say she hates the irrelevant nonsense he posts, even if that nonsense is about his spouses, mothers and his dogs. Merely that she hates the poster of this nonsense. Nor does she say that this nonsense is the reason for her hate. It could merely be that this nonsense is one of several properties which, collectively, help identify the object of her hate, which are those particular posters to whom all these properties are attributed. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Uh oh Bobster! I think this was one of those times you love to talk of, when a wise woman knows better than you. Perhaps you should take the 4.5 minutes (the time you say you usually need) to realise that Kermo is right, and reconsider. |
Don't worry, I've already listened. As I said, I'm done. Bramble / red dog called me a liar and I have shown the exact time and place where she said exactly what I have told you all that she said. She hates. She insults and lies, then accuses others of being liars. You can judge her integrity in the future precisely by how she has behaved right here. Toodles. Got stuff to do.
Big Bird, you seem to agree that we are talking about a person who has no scruples about using family members of someone she hates as a tool to hurt the person that she hates. Since some of the family members just happen to be a female spouse and a mother, it would seem clear that such a person would be disqualified in just about any discusssion having to do with misogyny and hypocrisy.
Smiles, y'all.
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Big Bird, you seem to agree that we are talking about a person who has no scruples about using family members of someone she hates as a tool to hurt the person that she hates. Since some of the family members just happen to be a female spouse and a mother, it would seem clear that such a person would be disqualified in just about any discusssion having to do with misogyny and hypocrisy.
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Um, no. I don't think (at least from the example you have provided) that she was using wives and mothers as a 'tool to hurt.' That would require you to have paper-thin skin.
When she says 'your wife is a fat ugly cow and your mum is a beastly old hag' then you'll have some cause to complain. But just complaining that your inclusion of them was irrelevant (in her view) to the discussion does not equate with using them to cause you pain.
I like you, Bobster, but I can't agree with your interpretion of things in this instance. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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This is all very interesting, but what does it have to do with Quizno's vs. Subway?
Please stay on topic. |
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