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Are you homophobic?
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Are you homophobic?

yes

10%

[ 11 ]

60%

[ 63 ]

no, but the whole idea makes me a little sick

28%

[ 30 ]

Total Votes : 104

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JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:

I still don;t see how homosexuality is a sin if as it seems everybody agrees that the old testament is out of date/misinterpreted. Where exactly in the word does it say homosexuality is a sin? If this is coming from an old testament source, surely you hve to accept the other things in the Old testament that were considered sinful as sins also. So basically instead of telling us how it feels like to be a christian(I can't relate..means nothing to me) could you go a little deeper into why homosexuality is a sin and if you intrepret other things in the old testament as sins also. Thanks.

Demophobe

Joined: 17 May 2004

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe, I totally support you in following the word, but isn't it worth looking as closely as we can at the original text to find out what The Word really means?

Sure, but not for a cultural re-interpretation or any kind of re-working to suit our lives now. The NKJV is a great example of how to re-examine the bible. Go back only to ensure an accurate translation that incorporates new developments in language. This version doesn't seek to make the Bible fit our lives, but help us to make our lives fit the Bible.

The Bible is remarkably clear about a great many issues and homosexuality is one of them.

Demophobe

Joined: 17 May 2004

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject:

JMO wrote:

I still don;t see how homosexuality is a sin if as it seems everybody agrees that the old testament is out of date/misinterpreted. Where exactly in the word does it say homosexuality is a sin?

If this is coming from an old testament source, surely you hve to accept the other things in the Old testament that were considered sinful as sins also.

So basically instead of telling us how it feels like to be a christian(I can't relate..means nothing to me) could you go a little deeper into why homosexuality is a sin and if you intrepret other things in the old testament as sins also. Thanks.

Think about it. The whole idea of humanity and one of our greatest blessings is to be able to reproduce; to carry on the human race. Homosexuality flies in the face of our reason for being, creation,, a fundamental event that not even the NT seeks to negate. Its common sense; if humans were all homosexual, we would cease to be. If you can't understand how this is working against God, then I can't be of any more assistance.

There are foundational elements of the OT, but discovering them will require more time than most people, evidently yourself included, will want to spend.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject:

Demophobe wrote:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe, I totally support you in following the word, but isn't it worth looking as closely as we can at the original text to find out what The Word really means?

How did you decide on the New King James Version as a "great example"? My sister studies Religion and Theology at Yale and Duke, and that's certainly not on their list of best translations. They prefer the New Revised Standard Version which unfortunately is not available via Biblegateway.com (my favourite search engine.)

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject:

Demophobe wrote:

JMO wrote:

I don't see how this can be intrepreted as a sin however. Don't alot of sexual acts involving a man and a woman not involve procreation? Are they sinful also? Also this doesn't seem to be an interpretation of the word but rather your private views on what the idea of humanity is.

Quote:

There are foundational elements of the OT, but discovering them will require more time than most people, evidently yourself included, will want to spend

So anything in the OT that is considered a sin, you consider sinful today? I won't be reading the bible. It doesn't interest me whilst this rather narrow aspect does. So it would be helpful for people who have read it to give me the lowdown.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject:

Demophobe wrote:

JMO wrote:

Demophobe, are you saying that it's *each person's* responsibility to reproduce? What about straight people who choose not to have kids? Or gay people who choose to adopt?

People aren't gay because they are against the idea of reproduction. They're gay because that's what their brains are telling them (according to the best of our current scientific knowledge.)

Demophobe

Joined: 17 May 2004

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe wrote:

JMO wrote:

Kermo, I meant what I wrote. Did I write that it was each person's responsibility to reproduce? No, I didn't.

Demophobe

Joined: 17 May 2004

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe wrote:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe, I totally support you in following the word, but isn't it worth looking as closely as we can at the original text to find out what The Word really means?

Again, I said it was a great example of a revision made to better use today's language. Kermo, stop reading what isn't there. I didn't say it was the best bible, but that it serves as an example towards the point I was making about why we re-translate scripture.

I am not surprised you are having trouble with the bible; you seem to make a habit of reading what isn't there or interpreting things on your own and apparently with many mistakes. Wink

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Did I write that it was each person's responsibility to reproduce? No, I didn't

It was at least implied when you wrote this

Quote:

The whole idea of humanity and one of our greatest blessings is to be able to reproduce; to carry on the human race

sorry but you havn't really answered the question. What is the difference between homosexuality and any other sexual act not designed to reproduce? If the idea of humanity is to reproduce then surely it our responsibility, if God created us to reproduce(that was the idea behind our creation).

Do you consider everything that was sinful in the OT to be sinful today?

thats the main question I'd like answered.

Quote:

seem to make a habit of reading what isn't there or interpreting things on your own

how do you know that you aren't doing the same?

SuperFly

Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:46 am Post subject:

Willie "three toes" was a gay labrador. But then the Koreans ate him. This is the life of a dog in Korea.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:57 am Post subject:

Demophobe wrote:

ChimpumCallao wrote:

twg wrote:

Demophobe wrote:

The Word doesn't change with the times

The Word, in Leviticus 20:13 wrote:

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

The word doesn't change, correct? And since you seem to be implying that you're not a compromised Christian, you support the murder of homosexuals.

Yes or no?

Agree. You implied Kermo is a compromised Christian because she does not follow the full doctrine ver batum. If this is what you are saying...then yes, she is. You cannot argue with that. All Christians are compromised as they tend to pick and choose what fits their worldview.

Dem, you are also equally compromised as I have seen you post on Sundays...a crime punishable by DEATH. Also, if you ever had a garden with mixed plantilife or are wearing clothes that mix fabric (aka, polyester blends) you are sinning greatly. This is also punishable by death. Also, I'm sure you have not murdered those who practice the bible less than you. By all means you should, or you are commiting another sin. Probably punishable by death. Or an eternity burning in hell. Also, you should not eat pork or shellfish. Remember also, to beat your children and not be too cruel to your slaves.

And beware the genies....

Oh wait, that's Islam...

Old testament. Pretty heavy stuff. People always go back to it when they need to affirm their anti-Christian stance, because from our standpoint, it seems unreasonable and over the top. Maybe, but in it's time, it was what was going on. Tough stuff, but there you have it. I guess we cant put ourselves back that far and even begin to understand that they were vastly different times. Nobody thought any different. Tough times indeed.

Posting on Sunday is a crime punishable by death? Laughing

Right. Grasping at straws. In fact Chimpum, your entire post reads more like a Monty Python script than anything else. God indeed doesn't want half-hearted worshipers, so we struggle to live better and more Christ-like everyday.

I am a sinner? You bet, and that is why I pray, repent and rejoice in my forgiveness. Homosexuals are not "bad" people; I see how my post was not clear on that. It seems to me that as society embraces and thus validates the homosexual lifestyle, it becomes an accepted sin and so, a compromise. As we embrace these compromises, people don't perceive it as a sin; look at what is going on right here. There is no doubt at all that it is a sin and goes against every idea God had for us. People engaged in a practice that is validated by society are less likely to repent, and thus, continue in sin.

We all sin, but the idea is that when we sin, we recognize it and try our utmost not to repeat the same sin. This is spiritual growth. To do the opposite is a regression, and though a repentant heart will never be denied, walking down the same sinful paths is not desirable. Being a Christian isn't about going in circles, its about growing. Growth means moving past yourself and your sins, putting them behind you and being stronger because of it.

Like it or not, most laws in developed countries were founded on the bible. As we become more "enlightened", (which is actually moving more towards darkness) we amend and compromise these biblical foundations. The acceptance of homosexuality is one of these. If people want to engage in homosexual relationships, I guess that is their choice, but why does society and everyone in it have to accept it? Why do I, or be called names?

Anyhow, I will follow the Word. An unrepentant homosexual is not in accord with the Word, and I feel the same way. Its wrong and it needs to be left up on the cross with the rest of our sinful selves. Deny the flesh.

For what its worth, being a Christian isn't restrictive at all. Its liberating actually. I don't expect any non-Christian to understand that idea, but its true. Its an incredibly difficult road, a daily challenge, requires huge discipline and a strong will. The rewards are huge though, and no, I don't mean simply dying and going to Heaven, though that is the final grace. I enjoy my life and am nowhere near where I want to be before I have to stand in judgment. I have much more work to do in His name before I leave, and in this way, I enjoy my life and have no wish for it to end. The world is a sick place though, and that is tough to endure. I cannot say I haven't wished to be taken, but that is idle fancy and the easy way out, which is rarely the right way.

The rewards are great for the repentant heart. I don't pick and choose, but I make mistakes. As I learn, I don't make those mistakes, yet daily, new ones will come up. This is the life. Its like whack-a-mole for a long time until those little buggers stop popping up so frequently; this is our maturation and growth in God.

As a retort to your BS reply, I present to you highlights of "John".

Quote:

# People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

# The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

# John, with his usual anti-Semitism, says that the Jews persecuted Jesus and "sought to slay him." 5:16, 18

# John says that Jesus "would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." 7:1

# No one could speak openly about Jesus "for fear of the Jews." 7:13

# If you don't believe in Jesus, you will "die in your sins" (and then go to hell). 8:24

# Jesus calls his opponents (the Jews) the sons of the devil. 8:44

# Once again, "the Jews" are accused of trying to kill Jesus. 11:8

# If you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell. 12:48

# Jesus is the only way to heaven. All other religions lead to hell. 14:6

# John blames the Jews for the death of Jesus. 19:7, 12, 14-15

# "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father."
If you follow Jesus' teachings, God will love you -- otherwise... well, you know. 14:21

# Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

# Now that Jesus has come, non-believers have no excuse for not believing in him. 15:22

# John, with his usual anti-Semitism, says that the disciples hid in locked room "for fear of the Jews." 20:19

How about Matthew

Quote:

# While insulting the Pharisees and Sadducees, John the Baptist calls an entire generation a "generation of vipers." 3:7

# Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

# Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

# Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

# "the children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

# Jesus tells his disciples to keep away from the Gentiles and Samaritans, and go only to the Israelites. 10:5-6

# Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

# Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

# "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." 10:33

# Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

# Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

# "He that is not with me is against me." 12:30

# "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him." 12:31-32

# Jesus often called people names. One of his favorites was to call his adversaries a "generation of vipers." 12:34

# Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

# Jesus refuses to heal the Canaanite (Mk.7:26 says she was Greek) woman's possessed daughter, saying "it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to the dogs." 15:22-26

# The ever-so-kind Jesus calls the Pharisees "hypocrites, wicked, and adulterous." 15:2-3

# In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

# Jesus condemns the Jews for being "the children of them which killed the prophets." 23:31

# Jesus blames his the Jews (who were then living) for "all the righteous blood" from Abel to Zecharias, 23:35

# The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

# Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

# "His blood be on us, and on our children." This verse blames the Jews for the death of Jesus and has been used to justify their persecution for twenty centuries. 27:25

I suppose this is all lost in context, eh?

Back to the debate.

Grimalkin

Joined: 22 May 2005

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:29 am Post subject:

Demophobe

Quote:

Think about it. The whole idea of humanity and one of our greatest blessings is to be able to reproduce; to carry on the human race. (1)Homosexuality flies in the face of our reason for being, creation,, a fundamental event that not even the NT seeks to negate. Its common sense; (2)if humans were all homosexual, we would cease to be. If you can't understand how this is working against God, then I can't be of any more assistance.

There are foundational elements of the OT, but discovering them will require more time than most people, evidently yourself included, will want to spend.

(1) The whole idea of humanity???

Hey "birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it"...and they even do it same sex!

(2) The 'if all humans were homosexual' argument doesn't quite cut it. You might as well argue 'if all humans were female....' You believe in a creator god right...so does looking around you give you the impression that he is against diversity?

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:49 am Post subject:

Demophobe, I'm disappointed that you've decided to insult me instead of engaging my ideas. Maybe I'm a cretin, or maybe you're not the crystal clear oracle you thought you were.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:59 am Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe, I'm disappointed that you've decided to insult me instead of engaging my ideas. Maybe I'm a cretin, or maybe you're not the crystal clear oracle you thought you were.

His views are dangerously ignorant, though through his other posts he usually seems intelligent. The funny thing is, I don't think the way he is acting on this site and those views is anything like what Jesus would have wanted...

To be honest, his views would probably be the same as the guy/girl who told Rosa Parks to stand up.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:30 am Post subject:

Demophobe wrote:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe wrote:

kermo wrote:

Demophobe, I totally support you in following the word, but isn't it worth looking as closely as we can at the original text to find out what The Word really means?

I didn't ask you why you thought it was "the best bible." I just asked about the grounds on which you chose it. Just because a translation is nice to read and sounds good in "today's language" doesn't mean it's faithful to the original meaning, so I hoped you had some insight into the method/approach used to translate.

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