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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| demaratus wrote: |
| And Christians and Jews are different? |
Yes, that is correct. The Christians and Jews have embraced reason to a greater extent than Muslims have. Be careful, I'm not saying AT ALL that Muslims are unreasonable, just that the role of reason in Islamic theology is not as prominant as it is in the Judeo-Christian world.
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Actually it plays a bigger role in Islam than you think. Historically it has played an important role in Al-Azhar, the oldest university in the world. The problem is the fire-brands of Islam push a more fundamentalist view. In addition, it has played a role in a lot of theological debates in Qom, the intellectual center of Shia Islam.
I've been reading The Looming Tower. It is an interesting look into Al-Qaeda and the various sects w/in the fundamentalist movement.
Bin Laden is a joke when it comes to theology. Al-Qaeda in general is quite ignorant about Islam as well.
I don't mean to downplay the negative aspects of Islam. There are obviously components in the Koran and hadiths that provide a route for Al-Qaeda and the like to "legitimize" their actions.
Personally I think it is more of the culture in the M.East than Islam itself that is the problem.
Yes BJWD, i'm aware of malaysia and indonesia supposedly going to the dogs, but come on, let's keep things in perspective. Has there ever been a terrorist attack in Malaysia? What's happened to the terrorist groups in Indonesia.
And just curious, how many times has a Malay or Indonesian wanted to discuss religion with you? How many times have you been subjugated to a rant about how America is screwing over the Muslims of the world? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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So I was reading the reviews of the aforementioned book, and one of them summarized some opinions of the author. Personally I think they're spot on.
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- The Arabic [sic] world is incredibly insular. He said, if you take away oil, the entire Arab world, from Morocco to Pakistan, produces less economically than the Finnish company Nokia (Nokia has less than 8,000 employees). He said, there have been 10,000 books ever translated into Arabic. If you think about that in terms of how many rows of book stacks that would be at a bookstore, it is shocking (I calculate that to be a few stacks of books !). One single Borders in the U.S. thus contains far more books than have ever been translated by Arabic translators (Spain alone translates about 10,000 books a year). Thus, most Arabs are, for our standards, incredibly lacking in resources, to understand our world. Not only that, but their countries censor books and all media. Freedom to assemble basically does not exist in the Arab world, and thus, basic freedoms are lacking.
- There is "gender apartheid" in [most of] the Arab world (particularly Saudi Arabia). Women are mostly not seen in public in Saudi Arabia. Men know very little about women as a result (how to meet them ?). It is pathetic, how little young men know about women. (he said, in Saudi Arabia, the women secretaries at his reporting agency worked in a room below a stairwell, and were basically never seen. he said, you would see Saudi women so covered by a burka, that you could not tell which direction their face was pointing !).
- The author said, in discussion with Arab men, the opinions he expressed, they had never considered, and never heard of. He said, it was like if a martian came down and said things that no one had ever said before and that were new and shocking. And those are normal conversations in the West.
- The Islamists (Al Quida, Muslim Brotherhood, etc.) have no plan. They simply want to destroy things and "take over". But when asked what their economic plan is, they have none. The only real goal of the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, is the hijab for women (headcovering). Other than that, the muslim brotherhood has no plan or goal for society. "It is like an empty vessle". Bin Ladin has no plan other than wanting the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia, and blind destruction of things western. How do you deal with unemployment (no answer). Hamas is now in power in "Palestine", and has found that ruling is very hard. It shows them that they now must have a program, but they don't have one.
- Pakistan was "the most mysterious country" the author visited. Far from being unstable, it is "very, very stable", "too stable" ("eerily stable"). He said, the military "owns" Pakistan, and it is run by military families. If you are not in the military, you are basically locked out of Pakistani society. He said, they play a game with the U.S. called "find Bin Ladin". They constantly get paid by the U.S., and they pretend to look for Bin Ladin. It is all a game to get money from the U.S. He said, there is now a "permanent Al Quida zone" along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and it is very worrying.
- Our U.S. intelligence is basically incapable of dealing with Al Quida. The FBI is staffed by Irish and Italian men, who know those cultures. The Arab applicants are shut out as a "security risk". Result: no one who really speaks Arabic. The FBI recently graduated 50 new recruits. Only one of them speaks any foreign language. Since the 1970s, U.S. intelligence has been hamstrung and hollowed out. There is no "human intelligence" anymore. There is basically zero hope that the CIA and FBI can deal with Al Quida. Everyone in government realizes that the Dept. of Homeland Security is a joke.
- Clinton really tried to kill Bin Ladin, and should have fired his CIA director after he gave the CIA the order to kill Bin Ladin, and two years later, he was still alive.
- One thing that motivated Wolfowitz and Cheney is that they really believed that Iraq had a hand in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.
- Iraq is a mess. Either way, Al Quida wins. If the U.S. withdrew, it would get much worse.
- Al Quida has very long-term plans, involving "drawing the U.S. in" to the Arab world. They would love it if we attacked Iran, because that would draw Iran in, and their "resources", into a world-wide fight.
- The author asked Islamic experts in the Arab world, "how will this conflict end". They mostly said that it is likely that the following will occur: a major western city were to be attacked by nuclear or biological weapon. Wright said, because we live in democracies, the public outcry would be so exterme and harsh, that a counterstrike, "attacking and destroying Mecca, Medina, and various targets in Iran" would be very, very likely, if not a foretold conclusion (!). (the CIA has even gone to Hollywood script writers to ask them for "scenarios", because they think that those scriptwriters "have more imagination" than bureaucrats at the CIA.
- The way to deal with Bin Ladin, if he were caught: try him before "Sharia courts". Take him to Kenya and Tanzania and make him confront the 150 Muslims who he blinded by the 1998 bomb blasts. Take him around and try him by sharia law. Take him to Saudi Arabia and ask for his execution. Make him look like he violated his own standards. Don't kill him, because then you make him a martyr. |
Amazon.com |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| demaratus wrote: |
| And Christians and Jews are different? |
Yes, that is correct. The Christians and Jews have embraced reason to a greater extent than Muslims have. Be careful, I'm not saying AT ALL that Muslims are unreasonable, just that the role of reason in Islamic theology is not as prominant as it is in the Judeo-Christian world.
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Actually it plays a bigger role in Islam than you think. Historically it has played an important role in Al-Azhar, the oldest university in the world. The problem is the fire-brands of Islam push a more fundamentalist view. In addition, it has played a role in a lot of theological debates in Qom, the intellectual center of Shia Islam. |
Certainly, reason is one of the principal mediums through which Allah is praised. But reason holds ultimately no relation to Allah himself. Allah, in mainstream Sunni theology, continually re-creates the world in every moment, and the world itself has no autonomy. In Christianity and Judaism, the world has so much autonomy that it distorts man's relationship with God. An intermediary was deemed as necessary in Christianity, and for the Jews, it was imperative that they are Chosen and follow the Law (by which I mean the book, not merely the Ten Commandments or Deutoronomy).
Allah is above reason, and is absolutely soveriegn.
| Pope Benedict XIV wrote: |
| [N]ot to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry. |
Franz Rosensweig would go so far as to argue that because of this, Islam is essentially pagan. I am not going that far. I will say there is a chasm between Islam and Judeo-Christianity, however. The context of the revelation of Islam through the dictation of God's Word by the Angel Gabriel only makes things more difficult.
However, I am not familiar with too many Islamic scholars. I'd be happy to be corrected on any of their points. I realize the other danger here is that Islam is not at all monolithic. Christianity certainly isn't, but I think there are special grounds with which to treat Islam as de-centralized in a way far beyond Judaism and Christianity. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
CentralCali is in either in a perpetual state of denial or a complete ignoramous.
{snip}
I'll get back to you about the criticisms of the Red Cross when my internet connection is working better and after I've had time to finish puking from reading and recording the aforementioned. |
I've a better idea. Get back to me when you learn to behave as an adult in an adult conversation. |
Why don't you get off your trolling, bigoted, ignorant, red neck American right-wing conservative, republican, good for nothing ass and read that {snip} instead of ignoring the fact that the American government is a piece of crap that doesn't care about it's own citizens.
Furthermore, the American government has backstabbed and blackmailed every Arab Islamic state in the Middle East while it continues to aid Israel to the tune of billions. Do I need to give you lectures on how Israel has treated the Palestinians right from the beginning? Perhaps I do.
Do average people deserve to be killed by Islamic extremists because of what the American government has done? NO, absolutely not! BUT the American government should accept responsibility for creating its own enemies and apologize to the entire world. And it should stop supporting Israel as well as all other countries with American tax dollars. If you want to support whatever as a private citizen, fine, but don�t tax me and use my money for it and then deny the American citizens aid in a hurricane disaster. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
| Why don't you get off your trolling, bigoted, ignorant, red neck American right-wing conservative, republican, good for nothing ass and read that {snip} instead of ignoring the fact that the American government is a piece of crap that doesn't care about it's own citizens. |
I see you decided to ignore some actually good advice. For your information, though, I am not trolling, I'm not bigoted, I'm certainly not ignorant, I'm not a "red-neck," I'm not all that conservative, I'm not a member of the Republican party, and I'm certainly not good for nothing.
I recommend that you try to conduct yourself as an adult in an adult conversation. That, which you appear not to know, is one in which the parties to the conversation do not hurl childish and vulgar insults at each other. Your conduct, thus far, has been that of a bigot. It's not exactly a sought-after trait, I would hope; however, "to each his own." |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| Why don't you get off your trolling, bigoted, ignorant, red neck American right-wing conservative, republican, good for nothing ass and read that {snip} instead of ignoring the fact that the American government is a piece of crap that doesn't care about it's own citizens. |
I see you decided to ignore some actually good advice. For your information, though, I am not trolling, I'm not bigoted, I'm certainly not ignorant, I'm not a "red-neck," I'm not all that conservative, I'm not a member of the Republican party, and I'm certainly not good for nothing.
I recommend that you try to conduct yourself as an adult in an adult conversation. That, which you appear not to know, is one in which the parties to the conversation do not hurl childish and vulgar insults at each other. Your conduct, thus far, has been that of a bigot. It's not exactly a sought-after trait, I would hope; however, "to each his own." |
I'll give you some good advice:
1st, dont start calling the truth about the American government and the Red Cross "a load of utter malarkey!" And then tell me, "Letting your prejudices govern your actions is to permit ignorance to be your master" without expecting to get rightfully flamed.
2nd, you must be a complete idiot not to understand that the American Red Cross has been highly criticized for it's mishandling of the Katrina disaster funds. How on earth could anyone still defend them?! 
3rd, come back to me when you've learned how to read the truth. Here's a start:
| Quote: |
This is the letter sent by Kirby Sommers to Mark Everson, CEO Red Cross regarding Missing Katrina Donations and help denied to survivors. A copy of this letter was sent to Senator Charles Grassley, Sheikh Salem Abdullah Al-Sabah of The State of Kuwait ($25m donation to Red Cross), and numerous news organizations.
August 21, 2007
Mark Everson, CEO
The American Red Cross
2025 E Street NW
Washington, DC 20006
Re: Missing Katrina Donations and Help Denied to Survivors
Mr. Everson,
In spite of the fact that you have not responded to my previous
letters and have yet to return my phone calls with regard to the Red
Cross withholding and re-directing Katrina donations, I am
nonetheless sending you the following � and expect much needed
answers.
As you know, I have been watching your organization carefully as it
pertains to your non-response to Hurricane Katrina survivors and have
been successful in getting the attention of other groups and the
media to unearth the truth about this money. What we now know with
certainly is that it hasn�t gone to the people.
After issuing our Press Release of yesterday (a copy can be seen on
our website: http://katrinahomedrive.org), I received an email from
one of your employees. The questions he poses need to be answered by
you and the board immediately:
�As a Red Cross insider, let me tell you that you have "outed" our
Hurricane Recovery Program (HRP) leadership. You've done a good job.
A few questions to pose. HRP leadership has spun numbers and done PR
but don't want the focus on HRP performance and people actually being
helped. Ask the right questions and have them provide evidence
rather than spin. Their throwing out numbers and talking about
disaster assistance creates a smokescreen for the issue at hand.
1. Why has it taken two years to spend $10 million to help people
under Means to Recovery?
2. What were the original projections? (It wasn't to serve 4,000
people over two years!)
3. Did you grossly miscalculate the number of cases and pace of cases? (Yes)
4. How many cases are pending right now? What is the strategy for
processing them in a timely manner?
5. Why are volunteers, who routinely rotate and new people come in,
regularly used to process cases at your Virginia site?
6. Are you using voodoo economics? If you start with $175 million
for recovery and the main program -- Means to Recovery has spent up
to $10 million, and 10,000 Access to Care cases only accounts for
$2.6 million, where did the rest go?
7. If you stand by your numbers, can you provide a state-by-state
breakdown of people helped?
8. Well, some went to a summer camp program. How much was spent?
9. Can you provide an assessment of the camps?
10. Have more people been processed by Texas HRP staff than Louisiana?
11. How many people are employed by Louisiana HRP? Is it true that
Louisiana has twice as many staff as other states?
12. Has your staff brought the slow pace of spending to your attention?
13. How much has been spent on overhead -- staff, consultants, travel, etc..?
14. Is this in line with funds spent on helping people?
15. Who will have access to the recent Audit findings? (The Board? Congress?)
16. Does the audit support the operation of a solid program?
17. What will be your response?
18. What is the status of your grants programs?
19. Is HQ staff morale low? (Yes)
20. Have you ever asked (not lectured) your middle management staff
for their input?
21. Have you ever asked persons of color for their perspective?
22. Has the Red Cross learned from this mishandled program for future
programming? (For President and Board)
Broken Heart�
Your employee is as upset as other Red Cross volunteers and paid
staff I�ve spoken with during the past several months regarding their
inability to help those who continue to suffer. This despite the fact
the Red Cross has the money, the resources and is required to have
responded to their needs a long time ago. There is no justifiable
reason for help not to have filtered down to those in need two long
years after the fact.
In addition to his questions, you have yet to respond to some of my
own, which follow again here:
1. How do you justify using Katrina donations for Wilma survivors?
2. How does your agency go from publicly stating you've raised $2.3
billion for Katrina relief; then change this number in your recent
interviews to $2.1 billion?
3. Kay Wilkins told a reporter the Red Cross "held back $193 million
for hurricane recovery." Yet, that number has also recently changed
to $175 million "left over after early missions tapered off."
4. On the one hand you state that the needs of survivors far exceed
all donations given to all charities; on the other the Red Cross
takes a $25 million Katrina donation from The State of Kuwait and
redirects it for your own infrastructure. This needs to be remedied.
I ask you today to replace the $25 million and put it back where it
belongs � in the Hurricane Recovery Program (HRP).
But not in the HRP that we know isn�t working � make immediate
changes to this program and start distribution of these funds as if
your own life and that of your family is at stake. There is no
difference between your family and Katrina families, Mr. Everson.
I can be reached at 212.787.8726, or you may call Senator Grassley
directly at 202.224.3744. Your prompt attention to this most pressing
matter is appreciated.
Yours truly,
Kirby Sommers
Katrina Home Drive
P.O. Box 237073
New York, NY 10023
cc: Senator Charles Grassley
Sheikh Salem Abdullah Al-Sabah, The State of Kuwait |
http://katrinahomedrive.org/_wsn/page2.html |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Turkey Probes Atheist's 'God' Book
Story Highlights
Turkish probe to look at whether "The God Delusion" is attack on religious values
Move could lead to the prosecution of the book's Turkish publisher
Turkey criticized for targeting writers and intellectuals for expressing opinions
The book has sold 6,000 copies in Turkey
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- A Turkish prosecutor has launched a probe into whether a book by best-selling atheist writer Richard Dawkins is an attack on religious values -- a move that could lead to the prosecution of the book's Turkish publisher.
"The God Delusion" has sold some 6,000 copies in Turkey.
Publisher Erol Karaaslan said he would be questioned by an Istanbul prosecutor on Wednesday as part of the official investigation into Dawkins' book, "The God Delusion."
Karaaslan could face trial and up to one year in prison if the prosecutor concludes that the book "incites religious hatred" and "insults" religious values, Milliyet newspaper reported. Karaaslan is both the publisher and translator of the book.
The investigation of the British scientist's book comes at a time when Turkey has been criticized for targeting writers and intellectuals for expressing opinions. The European Union, which Turkey hopes to join, is pressing Ankara to change laws that curb free expression, calling them inconsistent with the bloc's free speech standards.
Turkey said this month it would "soften" a much-criticized law that makes denigrating Turkish identity, or insulting the country's institutions, a crime.
The Nobel Prize-winning author Orhan Pamuk was among the highest profile Turks snared by the law, when he commented on the mass killings of Armenians by Turks in the early 20th century.
Historians estimate up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by genocide scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, denies the deaths constituted genocide, saying that the toll has been inflated and that those killed were victims of civil war and "unrest".
A probe was launched into "The God Delusion" after one reader complained that passages in the book were an assault on "sacred values," Karaaslan said.
No one was available for comment at the prosecutor's office.
The book has sold about 6,000 copies in Turkey since it was published by Karaaslan's Kuzey publishing house in June.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/28/dawkins.turkey.ap/index.html |
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