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vox
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Location: Jeollabukdo
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 Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: Korean language help: should vs. must |
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Hi
(I gave up looking for the language thread. Language in the search engine has several hits none of which is about Korean language. Apologies to language thread starters hoping to keep it under one thread.)
Okay so I'm studying Korean and really enjoying it for the most part except for the pervading lack of translation consensus in just about every book out there. Newest case in point: the modal "should"
My Kco-teach pulls out a list from a book during camp and "해야한다" is listed not as 'should' but as 'must'. So I've gone back and forth on this and I think 해야한다 really means 'should' and does not, as this book suggests, mean 'must'. I invite anyone to tear apart this contention. Here's the thing:
1) Many (can I even venture.. most?) Korean E2L learners don't use 'should' the way we do, at least not right off. So I think there's a cultural non-transference that happens when Koreans are using 'should' that makes it, bottom line, really mean 'must'. And possibly the same case for the use of 'must' standing in for what should be 'should'.
2) The negative complement, the past complement and the past negative complements to '해야한다' are all consistently listed as forms of should!
하지말아야한다 - should not do (it)
했어야했다 - should have done it (not quite sure about the spelling)
하지말았어야했다 - should not have done (it)
So WTF!? I say that 해야한다 means 'should' and that we're just looking at another bad book.
Please weigh in.
Last edited by vox on Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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LaughingSalmon
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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~해야만해요 is what i use for should and must. everybody seems to understand me, and I've heard it used in either context.
i learned it intuitively that way, so I'm not sure if it is actually right. I just don't think people distinguish that much between should/must. You obviously must do that which you should. Right? (sarcasm there)
Last edited by LaughingSalmon on Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LaughingSalmon
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| also when I explain to students the difference between "should" and "must" I have to explian that... must things.. if you don't do them, ahve serious consequences... whereas should things tend not to have the same kind of immediate, grave consequences. Or something. |
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vox
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Location: Jeollabukdo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| LaughingSalmon wrote: |
~해야만해요 is what i use for should and must. everybody seems to understand me, and I've heard it used in either context.
i learned it intuitively that way, so I'm not sure if it is actually right. I just don't think people distinguish that much between should/must. You obviously must do that which you should. Right? (sarcasm there) |
Ha ha!
No.
But I'm glad you brought up ~해야만해~ because I use that for must. And I heard that the 'man' part (만) is the stressor for 'really' as in, 'you really should do this'
I think of it in numbers. But it may be bulls*t but here goes:
DO IT 100%
MUST DO IT 90%
SHOULD DO IT 70%
MAY DO IT/MIGHT DO IT 50%
With the numbers differentiating between an invitation, a suggestion, and an imperative. Maybe the number system is what's got me tied up. |
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LaughingSalmon
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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yeah I use 해야해 actually for should, sometimes now that you mention it
I think it is more must with the 만 and more should without |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Ask your co-teacher what 해야 돼요 is then. |
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vox
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Location: Jeollabukdo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Ask your co-teacher what 해야 돼요 is then. |
I think she actually had an answer for that but I ignored it because I was trying to focus on one modal at a time.
I believe she might have said 해야 돼요 means 'you have to do it'
What is your understanding of that verb phrase? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Here are the gleanings from my computer file:
[verb stem]어야겠습니다 = should [verb]
틀림없이 [verb] = must [verb] (juding from the evidence)
[verb stem]야 (220b) 되다 = must [verb]
[first part of 하다 verb]돼야 하다 = must [verb]
[verb stem]야 하다 = must [verb]
[verb stem]아야겠다 = must [verb]
[verb stem]지 않으면 안되다 = must [verb]
[verb stem]면 안되다 = must not [verb]
[verb stem]어서는 안된다 = You must not [verb].
[verb stem I]려면 [verb stem II]지 않고서는 안된다 = In order to [verb I], one must [verb II].
[verb stem]면 안 되다 = You must not [verb].
[verb stem]어서는 안된다 = One must not [verb].
[verb stem]서는 안되다 = You must not [verb].
Last edited by tomato on Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| vox wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Ask your co-teacher what 해야 돼요 is then. |
I think she actually had an answer for that but I ignored it because I was trying to focus on one modal at a time.
I believe she might have said 해야 돼요 means 'you have to do it'
What is your understanding of that verb phrase? |
I've long thought that one to mean should and 해댜 해요 to be must. But if I'm talking about myself I should say 해야 겠어요. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Hmmm, I've had a k-co tell me several times i 'should' do something when she actually meant 'must.' Modals don't translate well into Korean, I'm guessing. For example, the health club I go to requires me to pay a daily fee on Sunday, despite me having paid in advance for the month. She tells me I should pay to work out. I say, no i shouldn't, i already paid for the month. i don't pay and i don't work out on Sundays. There really isn't a negative consequence tho. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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해야된다 should/must
꼭 해야하다 must |
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vox
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Location: Jeollabukdo
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| Hmmm, I've had a k-co tell me several times i 'should' do something when she actually meant 'must.' Modals don't translate well into Korean, I'm guessing. For example, the health club I go to requires me to pay a daily fee on Sunday, despite me having paid in advance for the month. She tells me I should pay to work out. I say, no i shouldn't, i already paid for the month. i don't pay and i don't work out on Sundays. There really isn't a negative consequence tho. |
This is precisely what I'm talking about. 'Should' being used in the place where English speakers would say 'must'. That gym instructor TOTALLY should have been using the word 'must' and not 'should'. I don't think in any of the English-speaking countries there's an idiom in which her use of 'should' could be imagined somehow as correct.
And it's everywhere, but just in Korea.
I feel like I'm uncovering something here. The next poster - I can't quote two posters in a post - said 해야한다 is 'must'. Why? It operates like 'should'. I just want to poke a little further until something gives. I'm beginning to suspect that this may be a long-trusted incorrect translation, based solely on how Koreans use the English equivalent.
Any grammar-savvy gyopos wish to enlighten us? |
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out of context
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
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해야 하다 is ambiguous. It can mean either "have to/must" or "should", depending on the speaker's intent, which is why Koreans learning English frequently confuse the English equivalents and say awkward things like "I should wash the dishes every night after making dinner" (to which a native English speaker would probably reply, "Why don't you, then?") or "If you like that girl, you must go and talk to her" (to which the same speaker might respond, "I didn't realize it was that big a deal").
If you want to unambiguously give the meaning of "should", you could use ~하는 것이 좋다 or ~해야겠다, and if you want to unambiguously give the meaning of "have to/must", you might use 꼭/반드시 ~해야 하다 or ~하지 않으면 안 된다. But if it's just ~해야 하다 (or 해야 되다, which is pretty much the same thing), there is room for interpretation as either a softer sense of recommendation or a stronger sense of obligation. |
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vox
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Location: Jeollabukdo
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| out of context wrote: |
해야 하다 is ambiguous. It can mean either "have to/must" or "should", depending on the speaker's intent, which is why Koreans learning English frequently confuse the English equivalents and say awkward things like "I should wash the dishes every night after making dinner" (to which a native English speaker would probably reply, "Why don't you, then?") or "If you like that girl, you must go and talk to her" (to which the same speaker might respond, "I didn't realize it was that big a deal").
If you want to unambiguously give the meaning of "should", you could use ~하는 것이 좋다 or ~해야겠다, and if you want to unambiguously give the meaning of "have to/must", you might use 꼭/반드시 ~해야 하다 or ~하지 않으면 안 된다. But if it's just ~해야 하다 (or 해야 되다, which is pretty much the same thing), there is room for interpretation as either a softer sense of recommendation or a stronger sense of obligation. |
Thanks for that, Outofcontext, I discussed it with my fiancee and it looks like that pretty much satisfies me.
I'm replying because I wanted to share some language about discussing it. It seems that when she and I described 'should' as 'passive advice' in English, her understanding of Korean misuse of should became a lot clearer. I'm going to unleash that on my co-teacher on Monday.
Can't wait. Should be juicy. |
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just because
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Location: Changwon - 4964
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think it has been answered but I have been taught...
-해야 한다 = must
-해야 돤다 = should
however you can use the first one for should as well as most koreans do as well..... |
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