|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Understood. Long, pro-enemy (that is, sypmathetic and apologetic for Tehran and Hezbollah and hostile to Washington) and self-righteous Op-eds, and without your own commentary, are hardly necessary to state your position on this. |
You should at least admit that the articles I post are more than just opinions.
| Gopher wrote: |
| By the way, Victor Ostrovsky? Is that all you have got as far as evidence goes? A single source, an Israeli malcontent who asks us to take his word at face-value and presents no evidence whatsoever? |
Yes, it is possible that Ostrovsky is a dis-information agent--although in this case, I can't think of a good reason why he should be. In any case, what he says is consistent with other established facts on Israel's blatant and not-so-covert activities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No. You posted a hostile Op-ed called "Shameless" and then you followed it up with a blast from Ostrovsky.
| arjuna wrote: |
| ...consistent with other established facts on Israel's blatant and not-so-covert activities. |
Can you cite a source that might help me escape the world of hostile Op-eds and slanted newsreporting and actually get into this world of "established facts on Israel's blatant and not-so-covert activities...?"
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcgeezer
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In my opinion, The U.S. should not be searching for financial compensation from tradgeties incurred upon them(yes it was a terrible action, probably not affirmed through top levels of the Iranian regime) unless they are willing to pay for things they've done to other countries in the last 50 years (too many to list here)......
I mean, if you're going to blame Iran for that attack, then Saudi Arabia has to be blamed for Sept.11, does it not?? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
| ...consistent with other established facts on Israel's blatant and not-so-covert activities. |
Can you cite a source that might help me escape the world of hostile Op-eds and slanted newsreporting and actually get into this world of "established facts on Israel's blatant and not-so-covert activities...? |
When faced with a monster, few people are capable of remaining inwardly calm and even-tempered. Surely, no one is short on moral indignation, no matter which perspective one holds. The details anyone speaks of may be true. The question is: Is there a full accounting of all relevant facts? Since there are layers and layers of dis-information, it is difficult to sort out the truth. Nevertheless, some things are blatantly obvious, if you are willing to look, and many hidden details behind the lies and exaggerations can be learned if you keep following leads and use your intelligence to connect the dots. What emerges is a very, very sinister picture.
Well, here is one source regarding the USS Liberty:
http://www.ussliberty.org/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I had hoped, based on your implicit promise to produce uncontested data, to get away from old news, "monsters," and "sinister pictures" and get into "established facts." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| I had hoped, based on your implicit promise to produce uncontested data, to get away from old news, "monsters," and "sinister pictures" and get into "established facts." |
Being contested or not is not a criterion of truth. The whole Earth can contest a fact (or not); it will still be true (or false). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whatever. The truth of the matter is this: you have no "established facts" to offer so you will dazzle or attempt to shame us with "monsters" and "sinister pictures" instead... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mcgeezer wrote: |
In my opinion, The U.S. should not be searching for financial compensation from tradgeties incurred upon them(yes it was a terrible action, probably not affirmed through top levels of the Iranian regime) unless they are willing to pay for things they've done to other countries in the last 50 years (too many to list here)......
I mean, if you're going to blame Iran for that attack, then Saudi Arabia has to be blamed for Sept.11, does it not?? |
Make your case. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| arjuna is a moonbat. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mcgeezer wrote: |
In my opinion, The U.S. should not be searching for financial compensation from tradgeties incurred upon them(yes it was a terrible action, probably not affirmed through top levels of the Iranian regime) unless they are willing to pay for things they've done to other countries in the last 50 years (too many to list here)......
I mean, if you're going to blame Iran for that attack, then Saudi Arabia has to be blamed for Sept.11, does it not?? |
Most of what the US has done since WW II was justified. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcgeezer
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Most of what the US has done since WW II was justified |
1. How about the shooting down of the Iranian Airliner? (Flight 655...290 people kiled; anyone ask them if they seek retribution?) I think not.
2. Massacres in Vietnam (My Lai)
-I imagine those families would like some sort of compensation far below 2.6 billion dollars!
These are two quick examples of American MASSACRES that have bypassed any sort of court-ordered financial responsibility upon them.......
Any argument to justify these acts are ridiculous! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
="mcgeezer"]]
1
| Quote: |
. How about the shooting down of the Iranian Airliner? (Flight 655...290 people kiled; anyone ask them if they seek retribution?) I think not.
|
The US paid compensation- it was an accident
2
| Quote: |
. Massacres in Vietnam (My Lai)
-I imagine those families would like some sort of compensation far below 2.6 billion dollars!
These are two quick examples of American MASSACRES that have bypassed any sort of court-ordered financial responsibility upon them.......
Any argument to justify these acts are ridiculous! |
[/quote]
That was terrible however the cold war was just.
North Vietnams' invasion of South Vietnam was illegal and they killed just as many as the US did.
In Korea the US did bad stuff to doesn't mean the Korean war was wrong |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Whatever. The truth of the matter is this: you have no "established facts" to offer so you will dazzle or attempt to shame us with "monsters" and "sinister pictures" instead... |
Are all of these quotes just made up to make Israel look bad?
Why do Americans have such a hard time seeing Israel for what it is? There is a strong and vocal opposition to the regime within Israel. But in America, Israel is seen as god's promise being fulfilled, or an island of civilization in a sea of muslim barbarians.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/palestinians.html
1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.
7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."
11. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
12. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.)
13. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
14. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.
18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.
21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]
25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).
26. "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).
27. "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Whatreallyhappened is by Michael Rivero . Michael Rivero is a holocaust denier.
His quotes are not accurate. Many of those quotes are actually what Hamas claims Israel said - not what Israel said.
Congratuations Arjuna.
| Quote: |
| "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969 |
| Quote: |
] Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian
identity serves only tactical purposes. The
founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool
in the continuing battle against Israel ... |
-- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head
of the PLO and member of its Executive
Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| arjuna wrote: |
| Why do Americans have such a hard time seeing Israel for what it is...? |
Why do you continue stereotyping and generalizing what "Americans" think? Why do you insist on a black-and-white, all-or-nothing, blindly-love-or-bitterly-hate-Israel worldview? To people like you, we either talk about America and its allies like Israel like Michael Moore or we must be ignorant, blindly-patriotic, whatever.
I support Tel Aviv. Tel Aviv is no saint. Both are true. It is an imperfect situation and we do the best we can given what we have to work with. And most Americans who I know, or at least those in policymaking positions think the same. Deal with it, purist.
Last edited by Gopher on Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
