|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:13 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Well, that's called democracy, and has to be figured out with votes...just because you can't acheive perfection, doesn't mean you shouldn't aim to do the best you can. |
That is right. And at the end of the day, we Americans are figuring out our own solution with our own votes and doing the best we can. Not everyone votes the same in a democracy, Big_Bird -- and not everyone votes the same over time, as well. Situations change. Democracies exist in a constant flux.
And, in any case, what we decide to do with our healthcare system is ultimately our own business. |
 It's your own business, but we will continue to lecture you about how to go about it properly, in any case.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| And, in any case, what we decide to do with our healthcare system is ultimately our own business. |
Yeah, like give it over to healthcare insurance companies who'll control the prices of medicine, etc.
If you want to be part of the system, you'll have to have a corporate job or government job which gives you a piece in the healthcare insurance system.
If you are your own boss or do something outside the corporate realm or get stuck in the United States largest employers "THE TEMP AGENCIES" you'll be insuranceLESS. Don't worry though, you can BUY minimum insurance at inflated prices (due to the insurance system) and get the bare minimums.
Let's face it, the U.S. healthcare system is fucked up! People who choose government, military, large corporation or independently wealthy might have the best insurance in the world, but there are a whole lot of OTHER AMERICANS that makeup some of the worst case casualties in the developed world because of a highly messed up system.
There is a REASON that politicians attempt to address this often regardless if they are Republican or Democrat, it's because it's not quite right and everyone knows it. Huge voting blocs do exist who are very concerned about this as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
One of the reasons for the high cost of health care is the high price of malpractice insurance.
Either limit it or award a large % punitive damages over certain amount to the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm an American and I'd say we can learn from the Europeans about healthcare, just like the Europeans took a lot of our our ideas about privatization and deregulation.
That being said, America foots the bill for a lot of research that makes quality universal coverage more feasible in other places:
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003794.html
"Europeans fund a small fraction of the medical research that Americans fund.
In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry. The National Institutes of Health�s current annual research budget is $28 billion, All European Union governments, in contrast, spent $3.7 billion in 2000, and since that time, Europe has not narrowed the research and development gap. America spends more on research and development over all and on drugs in particular, even though the United States has a smaller population than the core European Union countries. From 1989 to 2002, four times as much money was invested in private biotechnology companies in America than in Europe.
Dr. Thomas Boehm of Jerini, a biomedical research company in Berlin, titled his article in The Journal of Medical Marketing in 2005 �How Can We Explain the American Dominance in Biomedical Research and Development?� (ostina.org/downloads/pdfs/bridgesvol7_BoehmArticle.pdf) Dr. Boehm argues that the research environment in the United States, compared with Europe, is wealthier, more competitive, more meritocratic and more tolerant of waste and chaos. He argues that these features lead to more medical discoveries. About 400,000 European researchers are living in the United States, usually for superior financial compensation and research facilities."
There must be some way to spur innovation while providing universal coverage. I imagine if US instituted universal coverage, people would figure out how to have both. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
So Britain's universal healthcare system is Utopian? No flaws, no defects, no reform needed?
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| And you already know that my answer to your literal question is "Of course not." |
Then you would agree with me that employing "failed system" to generally characterize the entire American health-care system -- in need of reform or not -- and like, apparently, many social and economic indicators in our countries, is a bit harsh and tends to ignore that it is indeed working for the vast majority of the people, and even more when one includes the benefits poorer people may receive via programs like Medicaid and Medi-Cal or treatment at many community hospitals and other private foundations that have gone unnoted in the statistics partisans are employing to state their case...? |
I just had a little look at Medicaid to see what it is about, and it seems to me that it is a bit of a band aid solution, with people still falling through the cracks:
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidGenInfo/
| Quote: |
| Medicaid does not provide medical assistance for all poor persons. Even under the broadest provisions of the Federal statute (except for emergency services for certain persons), the Medicaid program does not provide health care services, even for very poor persons, unless they are in one of the designated eligibility groups. |
I would wager that because of the system, a lot of poorer Americans with no cover don't make regular visits to the doctor, and therefore don't catch problems until they are serious, and this probably costs the nation more in the long run. In fact, I posted something about that earlier on this thread (the article comparing Cuba with Britain). Something the British also need to work on, btw.
| Gopher wrote: |
| You are speaking like a purist and an undisciplined Idealist. |
And how would one go about disciplining such an Idealist? Eh?
| mack4289 wrote: |
[i]"Europeans fund a small fraction of the medical research that Americans fund.
In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry. The National Institutes of Health�s current annual research budget is $28 billion, All European Union governments, in contrast, spent $3.7 billion in 2000, and since that time, Europe has not narrowed the research and development gap. America spends more on research and development over all and on drugs in particular, even though the United States has a smaller population than the core European Union countries. From 1989 to 2002, four times as much money was invested in private biotechnology companies in America than in Europe. |
That's really interesting Mack. Looks like we Europeans have been riding off your backs, enjoying the fruits of American research without contributing much ourselves. Shame on us! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I just had a little look at Medicaid to see what it is about, and it seems to me that it is a bit of a band aid solution, with people still falling through the cracks... |
Thanks for your professional evaluation of Medicaid. And thanks for letting us know, again, that you disapprove of the American system.
You know, Big_Bird: like many others here, I think there comes a point where it becomes clear enough that no matter the issue you will disapprove and condemn America for it. Never good enough for you. And here I do not mean "good enough" as if it were perfect, but at least good enough to recognize that it is not the abomination you and the other hysterics here chronically call it.
Shrug. As I said, you do not need to ever come here and suffer this hell. As for TigerBeer: I suspect you are one of those guys who, for whatever reason, is unemployable or never more than "underemployed" in the American system. Thus you spend most of your time working abroad and have decided that your woes must be "the system's" fault... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| You know, Big_Bird: like many others here, I think there comes a point where it becomes clear enough that no matter the issue you will disapprove and condemn America for it. Never good enough for you. And here I do not mean "good enough" as if it were perfect, but at least good enough to recognize that it is not the abomination you and the other hysterics here chronically call it. |
In truth Gopher, there's a lot I like about America. I have a lot of positive feelings toward the country and its people. I certainly don't view it as an 'abomination.' Maybe it is you who needs to take a more balanced view, and chill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...there's a lot I like about America. |
Why not show me that last five posts you have written regarding America? How about the last ten? Twenty-five?
How would anyone ever get that "there is a lot you like about America" -- or in fact that there is anything you like about America -- from such posts?
I think the issue is not that you are so deeply antiAmerican inasmuch as you have apparently fully internalized the muckracking worldview and "can [therfore] look no way but downward, with the muck-rake in [your] hand."
Does this statically pessimistic worldview and the apparent absolute inability and/or unwillingness to ever see the glass as half-full not wear you down? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...there's a lot I like about America. |
Why not show me that last five posts you have written regarding America? How about the last ten? Twenty-five?
How would anyone ever get that "there is a lot you like about America" -- or in fact that there is anything you like about America -- from such posts?
I think the issue is not that you are so deeply antiAmerican inasmuch as you have apparently fully internalized the muckracking worldview and "can [therfore] look no way but downward, with the muck-rake in [your] hand."
Does this statically pessimistic worldview and the apparent absolute inability and/or unwillingness to ever see the glass as half-full not wear you down? |
OK Gopher. We get it. You don't like muck-raking. What I find slightly disturbing is your willingness to associate it with anthropomorphic birds, and I truly find your bias to be both blindingly strident and quite untoward. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go ape Bill Buckley's rhetorical style on other message boards. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| As for TigerBeer: I suspect you are one of those guys who, for whatever reason, is unemployable or never more than "underemployed" in the American system. Thus you spend most of your time working abroad and have decided that your woes must be "the system's" fault... |
I spent years in the U.S. living and making good money - up to $40,000/year. But I never did the corporate system, was never in the military, and never worked for the government. So therefore I never had healthcare there.
I'm one of 30 million by your calculations, and one of 55 million by the Center of Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia.
It's quite easy to be 1 in 7 or 1 in 10 or whatever the numbers you want to use. To be fair, I could have been in the 6 of 7 or 9 of 10 numbers if I had bought into the insurance system. Bare minimum coverage was a few $100s/month and covered pretty much very emergency medical attention but not much else of anything. It never seemed worth it to me.
Let me guess you're story. You were probably military and got all the stuff free from the government, then you joined the reserves and continue to get all the stuff free? If thats not the case, then contractor connected to the government getting all the free stuff? Whatever it is, I'm guessing you're getting all the free stuff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...there's a lot I like about America. |
Why not show me that last five posts you have written regarding America? How about the last ten? Twenty-five?
How would anyone ever get that "there is a lot you like about America" -- or in fact that there is anything you like about America -- from such posts?
I think the issue is not that you are so deeply antiAmerican inasmuch as you have apparently fully internalized the muckracking worldview and "can [therfore] look no way but downward, with the muck-rake in [your] hand."
Does this statically pessimistic worldview and the apparent absolute inability and/or unwillingness to ever see the glass as half-full not wear you down? |
You know well that I am not a fan of recent US foreign policy. Since this is a current events forum, it is natural that US foreign policy has been an issue, and natural that I have expressed my disapproval in that regard. Other than that, and my less than favourable view of the US health care policy, I challenge you to find things about the US that I found fault with.
That I do not regularly write about things I like concerning the US, is not proof in itself that I do not have such positive feelings. I adore elephants and enjoy reading Thomas Hardy, but I challenge you to find any posts on this site that would provide clues to that. And I suspect that anytime I have expressed favourable sentiments about America, or things American, it has escaped your notice, sadly.
You perceive me as a pessimist. Sometimes I take a pessimistic view with regard to some issues, but at heart I am an optimist. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| I'm one of 30 million by your calculations, and one of 55 million by the Center of Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia... |
I cede the ground on this thread and will no longer expend energy on reasoning with this mob. Agreed: the American healthcare system is a dismal failure and worthy of our contempt. Unlike Cuba or any Commonwealth's healthcare system -- which are apparently not worth anyone's time on this message board except to cite them as Utopian contrasts to the American system.
I do take issue with what you say, above, TigerBeer. Do you think we are dealing with absolute, static numbers here? That it is a matter of opinion between "my reckoning" and "CDC's reckoning?" Are you truly that dense and unable to appreciate fine distinctions and nuance? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
I cede the ground on this thread and will no longer expend energy on reasoning with this mob. |
We are the angry mob
We read the papers everyday day
We like who like
We hate who we hate
But we�re also easily swayed
The chorus starts about 3 minutes in, but if you want to see a nice bare female bottom pressed against a window, start at 1:50. Ha! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Well, that's called democracy, and has to be figured out with votes...just because you can't acheive perfection, doesn't mean you shouldn't aim to do the best you can. |
That is right. And at the end of the day, we Americans are figuring out our own solution with our own votes and doing the best we can. Not everyone votes the same in a democracy, Big_Bird -- and not everyone votes the same over time, as well. Situations change. Democracies exist in a constant flux.
And, in any case, what we decide to do with our healthcare system is ultimately our own business. |
It's your own business, but we will continue to lecture you about how to go about it properly, in any case. |
Maybe it would be better to fix your own system first. The Economist wrote a very good article on that a while back. Despite the extra millions pumped into the system by Blair, it is still struggling and inefficient (again according to The Economist).
Much like Canada's system it will eventually have to change once the baby boomers retire en masse. There just aren't enough workers to keep the present system going forever...not unless we fling the doors open wide and encourage immigration on a massive scale. Even then that's debatable if there are enough jobs...giving the on-going automation of the industrial workplace, to list just one example. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
When we look closer at the uninsured there are other problems with the idea of a gigantic, permanent health care underclass in America: 8.3 million of the uninsured make between $50,000 and $74,999 a year and another 8.7 million make more than $75,000 a year. And about half of the low-income households without an insurance are eligible for a public health insurance, but have chosen not to enrol. Almost 10 million of the uninsured are not American citizens, and almost the whole increase in the number of uninsured since 1990 is a result of growing immigration.
One leftist leaning foundation estimates that the real number of chronically uninsured (those uninsured for two years or more) is 8.2 million. That�s still a lot of people. But it�s not 47 million. |
http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=displayblog&month=09&year=2007#2352
Nothing is ever what it seems. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
