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Bin Laden Fights to Stay Relevant
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Dome Vans
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

if they were to sick them on those who support the terrorists then the ones who support the terrorists will be gone.

If the US makes them really afraid then they will take care of the terrorists.

Such simple comic book terminology here. Where are these terrorists and their funders going to go. Get sunday jobs, paper rounds? The idea that these people will disappear is unreal.

Quote:

The war isn't over. In the end the US will overwhelm those who support the terrorsts.

The US supports terrorists, I'm sure we've cleared that one up. They've funded saddam and al qaeda. So by simple definition again America is a terrorist. Ruling by fear.

And again here little ambiguous here with how long the war will take. I'm sure it ended on 1 May 2003:

Quote:

Four years ago today, on May 1, 2003, combat operations in Iraq ended. That nation is now a thriving democracy in a peaceful Middle East where freedom bells chime.

The event was marked in a speech by President Bush on the deck of the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln. Arriving in the back of an S-3 Viking which landed on the carrier, Bush spoke in front of a large banner which announced "Mission Accomplished" and began the speech by declaring an end to major combat operations in Iraq.

"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed," Bush declared. He also noted the destruction of the Taliban in Afghanistan. "You are homeward bound," Bush said to the men and women aboard the Abraham Lincoln.

Great that was four years ago so why is Al Qaeda still running around, you've had all this time just to concentrate on them?

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:25 am Post subject:

Dome Vans"][

Quote:

Such simple comic book terminology here. Where are these terrorists and their funders going to go. Get sunday jobs, paper rounds? The idea that these people will disappear is unreal.

Mideast regimes have a history of clobbering anyone who bothered their regimes.

Quote:

What terrorists?

The US funded AQ prove it.

CNN journalist Peter Bergen, known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997, has stated

Quote:

The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA did not understand who Osama was until 1996, when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.[45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

The US support Saddam against KHomeni like the US support Stalin against Hitler.

Anything the US does against the Al Qaedists the kHomeni followers and the Bathists is ok.

Quote:

Great that was four years ago so why is Al Qaeda still running around, you've had all this time just to concentrate on them?

The cold war took 45 years as I said this one is easier

endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:38 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Iraq has been a big recruiting tool at the same time, 70,000 trained in AQ camps in the 1990s.

That's a favorite talking point from people who share your ideology, but it's a straight up lie.

Osama bin Ladin didn't even refer to his group as Al Qaeda until aftet the 9/11 attacks. The name Al Qauda didn't even become public until earlier that year.

So how did this Al Qaeda train 70,000 terrorists during the 1990s?

It's simple, they didn't.

Now bin Ladin and his money was in Afghanistan during this period. Especially after he fled the Sudan

But it's not like his group (which was surprisingly small) was the central command behind all jihadist training in Afghanistan.

The 70,000 supposed terrorists were trained by a variety of very loosely organized juhadist groups (and many other autonomous ones). Now bin Ladin's money did help fiance some of these, but again he wasn't hardly directly behind it all.

And neither was Al Qaeda.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:44 am Post subject:

endo

Quote:

Well lets see.

Quote:

Al-Qaeda camps 'trained 70,000'

Thousands are said to have joined al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan
Some 70,000 people received weapons training and religious instruction in al-Qaeda camps, German police say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4146969.stm

I didn't know the German Police were on my side.

At any rate 70,000 Jihadists trained in Afghanistan

Why were the Jihadists there ? Just to fight against the Northern alliance?

Your source Jason Burke in foreign policy himself says the AQ fights for the Caliphate. Pleae let me know if you need a link. It is called Think Again Al Qaeda.

and AQ did refer to his group as AQ before 2001 and AQ was started in 1988 when the Soviets were on their way out of Afghanistan. Why would he start it up then? It seems he had something else in mind.

The name Al Qaeda:

Quote:

Osama bin Laden explained the origin of the term in a videotaped interview with al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Alouni in October 2001:

� The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed.[19]

What was going on, and what the group's intentions were

Quote:

Expanding operations
Toward the end of the Soviet military mission in Afghanistan, some mujahedeen wanted to expand their operations to include Islamist struggles in other parts of the world, such as Israel and Kashmir. A number of overlapping and interrelated organizations were formed to further those aspirations.

One of these was the organization that would eventually be called al-Qaeda, formed by Osama bin Laden with an initial meeting held on August 11, 1988.[52] Bin Laden wished to establish nonmilitary operations in other parts of the world; Azzam, in contrast, wanted to remain focused on military campaigns. After Azzam was assassinated in 1989, the MAK split, with a significant number joining bin Laden's organization.

In November 1989, Ali Mohammed, a former special forces Sergeant stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, left military service and moved to Santa Clara, California. He traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan and became deeply involved with bin Laden's plans. A year later, on November 8, 1990, the FBI raided the New Jersey home of Mohammed's associate El Sayyid Nosair, discovering a great deal of evidence of terrorist plots, including plans to blow up New York City skyscrapers. In 1991, Ali Mohammed is said to have helped orchestrate Osama bin Laden's relocation to Sudan.[53]

The name Al Qaeda before 2001 - by Bill Clinton in 1998

Quote:

There is at least one public reference to the name "al-Qaeda" that pre-dates the 2001 trial. The name appears with the spelling "al-Qaida" in an executive order issued by President Bill Clinton in 1998, less than two weeks after the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Executive Order 13099, issued on August 20, 1998, lists the organization as one of several associated with Osama bin Laden, the others being the Islamic Army, Islamic Salvation Foundation, the Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places, The World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, and The Group for the Preservation of the Holy Sites.[25] The name "al-Qaida" could have been introduced to U.S. intelligence by Jamal al-Fadl, who had been providing the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) with intelligence about bin Laden since 1996, before ultimately appearing as a witness in the February 2001 trial of those accused of the 1998 United States embassy bombings.

endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:58 am Post subject:

What name did bin Ladin refer to when he made his fatwa against America in 1998? It wasn't Al Qaeda. The German police were just recycling old information that was false. I've said it before, Al Qaeda is just a marteting tool. A term used to create the illusion that all the juhadist groups around the world are under one ideologically similar umbrella. It's not and has never been an organization in the conventional sense. And it certainly didn't have the command structure and central control to be responsible for training 70,000 terrorists.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:01 am Post subject:

endo wrote:

What name did bin Ladin refer to when he made his fatwa against America in 1998?

It wasn't Al Qaeda.

The German police were just recycling old information that was false. I've said it before, Al Qaeda is just a marteting tool. A term used to create the illusion that all the juhadist groups around the world are under one ideologically similar umbrella.

It's not and has never been an organization in the conventional sense. And it certainly didn't have the command structure and central control to be responsible for training 70,000 terrorists.

Bin Laden says different things at different times. I would say.

Al Qaedia was one term for his organization , but he had other terms too.

You wouldn't agree that Bin Laden was a bigger player than anyone else in training them , not that they were all under his command but he was probably the biggest player of all.

His organization got bigger and bigger in the 1990s and and it is clear that 70.000 Jihadists did train in terror camps in Afghanistan. You don't think it was to fight against the Northern allaince?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject:

endo wrote:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Iraq has been a big recruiting tool at the same time, 70,000 trained in AQ camps in the 1990s.

You are wrong. It is not a straight-up lie.

9-11 Commission Report, p.56

Quote:

April 1988 brought victory for the Afghan jihad. Moscow declared it wouldpull its military forces out of Aghanistan within the next nine months. As the Soviets began their withdrawal, the jihad's leaders debated what to do next.
Bin Laden and Azzam agreed that the organization successfully created for Afghanistan should not be allowed to dissolve. They established what they called a base or foundation (al Qaeda) as a potential general headquarters for future jihad.

From 1996-2001, Bin Laden trained 10,000-20,000 jihadists

9-11 Commission Report, p.66-67

Quote:

The alliance with the Taliban provided Al Qaeda a sanctuary in which to train and indoctrinate fighters and terrorists, import weapons, forge ties with other jihad groups and leaders, and plot and staff terrorist schemes. While Bin Laden maintained his own al Qaeda guesthouses and camps for vetting and training recruits, he also provided support to and benefited from the broad infrastructure of such facilities in Afghanistan made available to the global network of Islamist movements. US intelligence estimates put the total number of fighters who underwent the instruction in Bin Ladin-supported camps in Afghanistan from 1996 through 9/11 at 10,000 to 20,000.

endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject:

Then how come bin Ladin himself never referred to his "organization" as Al Qaeda publically until after the 9/11 attacks?

Now I'm not at all saying that bin Ladin was a swell guy. Just the opposite.

However, I believe his direct role in terrorist attacks and in particular the events of 9/11 have been an artificial truth.

Quote:

Bin Laden initially denied involvement in the September 11, 2001 attacks while praising them effusely, explaining their motivation, and dismissing American accusations of his involvement as an example of its hatred for Islam. On September 16, 2001, bin Laden read a statement later broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel saying:

I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation.[65]

God has struck America at its Achilles heel and destroyed its greatest buildings, praise and blessing to Him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_Bin_Laden#Formation_of_al-Qaeda

And to this date the American government has been able to find no direct connection (especially the money trail) to bin Ladin. Granted this can be difficult as many Islamic charities were funneling terrorist money during this period.

It was likely another jihadist organization that carried out the 9/11 attacks. This group may have had some what of a working relationship with bin Ladin, but it's widely accepted that bin Ladin while in Afghanistan was primarily a PR tool of a wealthy Muslim providing his money for the jihadist cause.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Bin Laden on tape: Attacks 'benefited Islam greatly'

(CNN) --Osama bin Laden recounts with delight the September 11 terrorist attacks against the United States as he talks with associates on a videotape released Thursday by the Bush administration.

Reveling in the details of the fatal attacks, bin Laden brags in Arabic that he knew about them beforehand and says the destruction went beyond his hopes. He says the attacks "benefited Islam greatly."

Bin Laden -- branded by U.S. authorities as the mastermind behind the attacks -- indicates during the recording that he knew for several days that September 11 would be the date of the attacks.

He says he turned on his radio in advance to listen to coverage of the attacks and that he underestimated the damage that would be inflicted on the World Trade Center.

"I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only," he said, according to a U.S. government translation. "This is all that we had hoped for."

The Bush administration hopes the tape will convince skeptics, particularly in the Muslim and Arab worlds, of bin Laden's complicity in the attacks.

"I think everyone can make their own judgment about it," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said. "I know what I think."

New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said the tape removes any doubt that the U.S. military campaign targeting bin Laden and his associates is "more than justified."

"Obviously, this man is the personification of evil," he said. "He seems delighted at having killed more people than he anticipated, which leaves you wondering just how deep his evil heart and soul really is."
'Martyrdom operation'

Bin Laden says on the tape that while the hijackers knew they were on a "martyrdom operation," some did not know anything about the plot until just before they boarded the planes. He also says those who were trained to fly didn't know the others.

Bin Laden's associates heap praise on him, fawning over his leadership and insisting that the attacks would draw hundreds of new followers and help showcase Islam.

Even as he showers compliments on bin Laden, one man apologizes for even speaking in bin Laden's presence.

"You have given us hope," said the lieutenant, identified as Shaykh, who apparently hosted a visit by bin Laden at a guest house in Kandahar, according to U.S. officials, who also told CNN he was a Saudi.

Bin Laden talks in detail about the hijackings, saying "Mohamed from the Egyptian family" -- presumed by the U.S.-hired translators to be a reference to alleged hijacker Mohamed Atta -- was in charge of the group. Translators described that as a reference to the Egyptian cell of bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.

The jovial, carefree nature of the conversation captured on the videotape contrasts with the gravity of the subject matter. As bin Laden and his colleagues talk about the collapse of the twin towers, they appear to take delight in the destruction. "Allah be praised," said one man, a phrase repeated throughout the tape. "Overjoyed" is how bin Laden describes the reaction of others.

An elder congratulates bin Laden on the attacks, stating: "The elderly ... everybody praises what you did, the great action you did, which was first and foremost by the grace of Allah. This is the guidance of Allah and the blessed fruit of jihad."
Dreams of tall buildings

Before the attacks, bin Laden said some associates had dreams about tall buildings in the United States.

"At that point, I was worried that maybe the secret would be revealed if everyone starts seeing it in their dream," bin Laden said.

Officials said the approximately hour-long tape, dated November 9 and made in Kandahar, was not shot in chronological order. The later part of the meeting is seen first, followed by unrelated shots of a downed U.S. helicopter and then the first part of the meeting that bin Laden had with associates.

They said they found the videotape in a private residence in Jalalabad, although they cautioned the nature of its discovery was more complicated.

The tape was released by the Bush administration after it weighed concerns over protecting U.S. intelligence sources and methods against the goal of building the public case against bin Laden. Its delay was complicated by the poor audio quality of the tape.

The Bush administration called on four outside, non-government translators to review the tape, to counter possible claims that the White House had doctored it or provided an inaccurate translation.

The tape's release is central to informing people in the outside world who don't believe bin Laden was involved in the September 11 attacks, said Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. "I don't know how they can be in denial after they see this tape," he said.

Raghida Dergham of the Arabic-language newspaper Al-Hayat said the tape is "a strong piece of evidence."

"It's not going to convince everyone. You will always have some skeptics out there. But it will strengthen the view of those who have thought all along that bin Laden and al Qaeda had been involved," Dergham said. "I think that the level of denial will decrease."

Find this article at:
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape

� 2007 Cable News Network.

Dome Vans
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

associates on a videotape released Thursday by the Bush administration.

How do they get this exactly? in a brown envelope, first class or do you think Bin Laden uses UPS.

Quote:

The Bush administration hopes the tape will convince skeptics, particularly in the Muslim and Arab worlds, of bin Laden's complicity in the attacks.

Hopes! now there's desperation. To much water under the bridge, if you are convinced by this, years after the 9/11 then you are an idiot. Lies, deceit and then more lies.

Quote:

targeting bin Laden and his associates is "more than justified."

Yes, let's carry on with the war with no forseeable end. Cannon fodder!

Quote:

"Obviously, this man is the personification of evil,"

Considering that the majority of Americans believe in good and evil and heaven and hell, and the existence of the devil I'm sure there's plenty of imagination for this one. Nod head![/b]

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:05 am Post subject:

endo wrote:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Iraq has been a big recruiting tool at the same time, 70,000 trained in AQ camps in the 1990s.

Quote:

The story...

There is also no evidence that bin Laden used the term Al Qaeda to refer to the name of a group until after September the 11th, when he realized that this was the term the Americans have given it.
BBC Documentary
The Power of Nightmares

Our take...

The Power of Nightmares talks about Jamal al Fadl, �a Sudanese militant who was with bin Laden in the early 90s�, who was a key prosecution witness in the trial of the 1998 embassy bombers, held in January 2001. They say of his testimony:

The picture al-Fadl drew for the Americans of bin Laden was of an all-powerful figure at the head of a large terrorist network that had an organised network of control. He also said that bin Laden had given this network a name: Al Qaeda. It was a dramatic and powerful picture of bin Laden, but it bore little relationship to the truth.
BBC Documentary
The Power of Nightmares

...and then tell us that �there is also no evidence that bin Laden used the term Al Qaeda to refer to the name of a group until after September the 11th�.

�No evidence?�

Here�s a comment bin Ladin made from an October 2001 interview:

Osama bin Ladin: The name "al Qaeda" was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al Qaeda [meaning "the base" in English]. And the name stayed.

interview between Al-Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alouni and Osama Bin Laden in October 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/05/binladen.transcript/index.html

How long ago was the name established? The 9/11 Commission Report talks of the late 1980�s:

Bin Laden and Azzam agreed that the organization successfully created for Afghanistan should not be allowed to dissolve. They established what they called a base or foundation (al Qaeda) as a potential general headquarters for future jihad.
Page 56, Chapter 2
9/11 Commission Report

If you don�t trust the Commission, then try this US State Department statement on
bin Ladin from August 14th 1996:

TEXT: STATE DEPARTMENT ISSUES FACTSHEET ON BIN LADIN
(Sponsor of Islamic extremist activities described)

By 1985, Bin Ladin had drawn on his family's wealth, plus donations received from sympathetic merchant families in the Gulf region, to organize the Islamic Salvation Foundation, or al-Qaida, for this purpose.
http://www.usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/press/state/archive/august/sd4_8-15.htm

Are we to believe that bin Ladin failed to notice this, where the US Government described him as �one of the most significant financial sponsors of Islamic extremist activities in the world today�?

Other mentions of al Qaeda prior to al-Fadl�s 2001 testimony include this MSNBC article from August 24th, 1998:

In fact, while he returned to his family's construction business, bin Laden had split from the relatively conventional MAK in 1988 and established a new group, al-Qaida, that included many of the more extreme MAK members he had met in Afghanistan.
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/WarOnTerror/Roost.asp

And then there were the original legal documents, the complaints and indictments, relating to the Embassy bombings trial in which al Fadl would eventually testify. This excerpt is from September 1998:

Overview: Usama Bin Laden, the al Qaeda Organization, the Embassy Bombings and Wadi el Hage

5. During the course of my investigation, I have become familiar with a terrorist organization know as al Qaeda. I have learned from a variety of sources, including: persons who have been associated with al Qaeda; statements by the leader of al Qaeda, Usama Bin Laden; and documentary evidence, that al Qaeda is an international terrorist organization led by Usama Bin Laden. The purposes of al Qaeda include, among other things: (i) killing members of the American military stationed in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia and elsewhere; and (ii) killing American civilians worldwide, in response to, and in order to influence, the foreign policy of the government of the United States. As is set forth below, EL HAGE has admitted serving as the personal secretary of Usama Bin Laden while Bin Laden and EL HAGE lived in the sudan and has also admitted being familiar with Bin Laden's ranking military commanders, Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri and Abu Hafs el Masry. In 1994, EL HAGE moved from Sudan to kenya where he lived until
1997 before returning to the United States.
http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/usa-v-qaeda.htm

There�s definitely evidence for widespread use of the name before 9/11, then.

Note also that while The Power of Nightmares wants to tell you that al Fadl played a big part in creating the �myth� of al Qaeda, this document, from more than two years earlier, tells a similar story: there is an �international terrorist organisation�, it is called al Qaeda, it is led by bin Ladin. In these claims, at least, al Fadl was only reinforcing information that was already public.

http://www.911myths.com/html/the_al_qaeda_name.html

Quote:

The story...

Al Qaeda doesn't exist. They're an invention of the US Government designed to keep the population frightened, and ensure they accept higher military spending. They're all just US puppets.

Our take...

One quote sometimes used to support some of these ideas comes from former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook. Or at least that�s what you might be told.

Shortly before his untimely death, former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook told the House of Commons that "Al Qaeda" is not really a terrorist group but a database of international mujaheddin and arms smugglers used by the CIA and Saudis to funnel guerrillas, arms, and money into Soviet-occupied Afghanistan.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3836

Robin Cook wasn�t known for denying Al Qaeda is a terrorist group as far as we can recall, and searching at Hansard (a record of everything that goes on in Parliament) produced no matches even remotely matching the above claim. The best match we found was this, from a Guardian article:

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.

The danger now is that the west's current response to the terrorist threat compounds that original error. So long as the struggle against terrorism is conceived as a war that can be won by military means, it is doomed to fail. The more the west emphasises confrontation, the more it silences moderate voices in the Muslim world who want to speak up for cooperation. Success will only come from isolating the terrorists and denying them support, funds and recruits, which means focusing more on our common ground with the Muslim world than on what divides us.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html

No suggestion whatsoever that �al Qaeda is not a terrorist group�, quite the opposite. In the absence of any supporting evidence, it looks like the original quote has been twisted to suit one side of the story: so much for finding 911 truth.

Some people have also misrepresented the UK documentary �The Power of Nightmares� to come to the same conclusion. They start with quotes like this...

Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?
Is it conceivable that Al Qaeda, as defined by President Bush as the center of a vast and well-organized international terrorist conspiracy, does not exist?
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0111-31.htm

Typically the first line will be quoted, or they�d suggest this means there is no terrorist threat. However, this isn�t what the documentary said. The Power of Nightmares specifically states that bin Ladin is at the centre of a group of terrorists, who carried out 9/11, and may carry out other attacks in the future. Its particular claim, as the quote makes clear, is that they are not �vast� and �well-organised�, with agents in every country. Not the same as saying they don�t exist. Here�s an example in a quote by journalist Jason Burke:

The idea which is critical to the FBI�s prosecution that bin Laden ran a coherent organisation with operatives and cells all around the world of which you could be a member is a myth. There is no Al Qaeda organisation. There is no international network with a leader, with cadres who will unquestioningly obey orders, with tentacles that stretch out to sleeper cells in America, in Africa, in Europe. That idea of a coherent, structured terrorist network with an organised capability simply does not exist.
http://www.durodie.net/pdf/PowerOfNightmares3.pdf

However, even here there is reason to believe they underplay the reality of the situation. Search the above file, for instance, and you won�t see any mention of the Al Qaeda attack on the USS Cole. Why not? Wasn�t that a part of why America were saying they were a danger? Seems relevant to us, yet The Power of Nightmares chose not to discuss this with their viewers.

Further, you need to be careful about how much you read into quotes like the above, as The Nation pointed out:

in his 2003 book, Al-Qaeda: Casting a Shadow of Terror, Burke is less dismissive of the idea that Al Qaeda was an organization than this soundbite suggests. Burke wrote that while the "al-Qaeda hardcore" consisted of relatively few people, "by late 2001, bin Laden and the men around him had access to huge resources, both symbolic and material, which they could use to project their power and influence internationally"--that sounds suspiciously like a "coherent organization" to me.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050620/bergen

And in fact if you read beyond the �Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?� title of our first article, a more accurate summary appears later.

Of course, the documentary does not doubt that an embittered, well-connected and wealthy Saudi man named Osama bin Ladin helped finance various affinity groups of Islamist fanatics that have engaged in terror, including the 9/11 attacks. Nor does it challenge the notion that a terrifying version of fundamentalist Islam has led to gruesome spates of violence throughout the world. But the film, both more sober and more deeply provocative than Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," directly challenges the conventional wisdom by making a powerful case that the Bush administration, led by a tight-knit cabal of Machiavellian neoconservatives, has seized upon the false image of a unified international terrorist threat to replace the expired Soviet empire in order to push a political agenda.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-scheer11jan111,0,5176218.column?coll=la-util-op-ed

Of course some still argue that this is incorrect, or if al Qaeda exist, they�re just a US puppet. But if there were any substance to this, then where is the criticism for bin Ladin�s �collaboration� in the Middle East? Why are we not seeing marches where the people condemn al Qaeda leaders for being nothing more than a tool of Bush?

One collection of quotes you�ll often find popping up in forums does suggest scepticism of the existence of Al Qaeda, but you need to read these carefully, too. An example:

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair, London, United Kingdom

Commenting on the possible role of Al Qaeda, Blair said, "Al Qaeda is not an organization. Al Qaeda is a way of working ... but this has the hallmark of that approach."
http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15576

This reads to us like Jason Burke�s comments, above: he�s saying that there is no big central organisation that you can join, but not that Al Qaeda doesn�t exist at all. And if whoever prepared the above quote hadn�t snipped out the very next line, then that might have been clearer to everyone:

"Al Qaeda clearly has the ability to provide training ... to provide expertise ... and I think that is what has occurred here," Blair said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162476,00.html

Then they give us this quote:

According to Dadullah, al-Qaeda did not exist in Afghanistan and he said he did not know the fate or whereabouts of Osama bin-Laden.
http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15576

But unless you read the source link, you wouldn�t know that the story appeared in March 2003, long after the fall of the Taleban. He could simply be saying they didn�t exist in Afghanistan now, not that they hadn�t before. And in fact specifying a location (�al Qaeda did not exist in Afghanistan�) suggests he does believe they exist elsewhere, hardly supportive to the claims of this piece. Especially when later pieces tell a very different story, such as in these reports of an al Jazeera interview:

Dadullah implied that the Taliban and al-Qaida were working together, and said mujahedeen from various parts of the world, including Arabs, were fighting in Afghanistan. He said the foreigners made up about 10 percent of the fighters.

�Both Taliban and al-Qaida have the same objectives,� he said, warning that anyone supporting the Americans and the government �will be dealt with.�
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10608771/

Cooperation between us and Al Qaeda is very strong. Many of our Arab mujahideen brothers are fighting alongside of us to establish the religion of Allah. We will accompany Al Qaeda anywhere to fight the enemies of Allah
http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers19%5Cpaper1805.html

There are reasons to question his earlier quote, then, and there are potential issues of trust with other quotees:

Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Member of Parliament in Pakistan:
"I've never been sure whether the so-called Al-Qaeda has ever even existed."
http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15576

But then there was surprise in Pakistan when Qazi Hussain Ahmad revealed how he�d repeatedly met with bin Ladin, which led a Pakistan online newspaper to wonder how close his party might have been to Al Qaeda:

Talking to the Sunday magazine of a national Urdu daily, Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) and Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) leader Qazi Hussain Ahmad revealed that he had repeatedly met Osama bin Laden and that the Al Qaeda leader had visited him at Mansoora, the Jamaat headquarters in Lahore...

When Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was finally caught it was at the house of a JI member. Did the Jamaat have no truck with Al Qaeda, as Qazi Sahib claims?
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\03\20\story_20-3-2006_pg3_1

Other quotes of his don�t sit so well with the �Al Qaeda doesn�t exist� idea, either:

In an interesting contrast, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, the hardliner Muttehida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) leader, hails al-Qaeda for its attempts on General Musharraf's life. In an interview with Weekly Ghazwa [June 2], Qazi said: "General Musharraf is a traitor. He used to be al-Qaeda' number one patron. But now he has cheated it at the US behest. Therefore, al-Qaeda is right if it attacks him. It will take him on sooner rather than later. The mayhem in Karachi is a reaction to Musharraf's policies against al-Qaeda in South Waziristan."
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/Archives/3_1.htm

The message here, once again, is not to necessarily believe quotes. Find the full version for yourself, read the context, look at what else an individual has said and decide if they can be trusted. Only then can you decide how accurate a particular article might be.

http://www.911myths.com/html/do_al_qaeda_exist.html

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:05 am Post subject:

Dome Vans wrote:

Quote:

associates on a videotape released Thursday by the Bush administration.

How do they get this exactly? in a brown envelope, first class or do you think Bin Laden uses UPS.

Quote:

The Bush administration hopes the tape will convince skeptics, particularly in the Muslim and Arab worlds, of bin Laden's complicity in the attacks.

Hopes! now there's desperation. To much water under the bridge, if you are convinced by this, years after the 9/11 then you are an idiot. Lies, deceit and then more lies.

Quote:

targeting bin Laden and his associates is "more than justified."

Yes, let's carry on with the war with no forseeable end. Cannon fodder!

Quote:

"Obviously, this man is the personification of evil,"

Considering that the majority of Americans believe in good and evil and heaven and hell, and the existence of the devil I'm sure there's plenty of imagination for this one. Nod head![/b]

I'll explain to you how this works.

We advance evidence, and you counter with your own claims and your own evidence.

Mocking all Americans for the beliefs of some Americans is cute, but it doesn't advance your argument, much less make any sense.

Endo wrote:

However, I believe his direct role in terrorist attacks and in particular the events of 9/11 have been an artificial truth.

The only evidence you have of this supposedly 'artificial truth' is Bin Laden's own words?

Hold on. I think O.J. said he's going to find the real killer, where is the real killer?

Lastly, since you've cited wiki, I'll avail myself of the same. This entry seems based off the 9-11 Commission Report anyway. Bolded text is my addition.

Quote:

Bin Laden initially denied, but later admitted involvement in the incidents.[81] On September 16, 2001, bin Laden denied any involvement with the attacks by reading a statement which was broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel: "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation."[82] This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide.

In November 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape from a destroyed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, in which Osama bin Laden is talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden admits foreknowledge of the attacks.[83] The tape was broadcast on various news networks from December 13, 2001.

Taken from the bin Laden video of December 27, 2001. On December 27, 2001, a second bin Laden video was released. In the video, he stated "Terrorism against America deserves to be praised because it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel, which kills our people," but he stopped short of admitting responsibility for the attacks.[84]

Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004, in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the U.S, and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because, "We are a free people who do not accept injustice, and we want to regain the freedom of our nation."

In a videotape aired on Al Jazeera, on October 30, 2004, bin Laden said he had personally directed the 19 hijackers.[85] Another video obtained by Al Jazeera in September 2006 shows Osama bin Laden with Ramzi Binalshibh, as well as two hijackers, Hamza al-Ghamdi and Wail al-Shehri, as they make preparations for the attacks

Of course, and I think this is the point you may be trying to make, Bin Laden is really just the front-man and grand financier for Al Qaeda. He's like the President of a college, whose job it is to fund-raise and finance, whereas the Dean of Al Qaeda would be Al-Zawahiri. Zawahiri is the ex-surgeon who organizes all the details and plans strategy. You're free to call Zawahiri the Dean of Terror. I don't have a patent on it. Wink

Zutronius

Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Location: Suncheon

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:44 am Post subject:

Didn't Bin Laden die in December 2001?

http://www.welfarestate.com/binladen/funeral/

Quote:

Translation of Funeral Article in Egyptian Paper:
al-Wafd, Wednesday, December 26, 2001 Vol 15 No 4633

News of Bin Laden's Death
and Funeral 10 days ago

Islamabad -
A prominent official in the Afghan Taleban movement announced yesterday the death of Osama bin Laden, the chief of al-Qa'da organization, stating that binLaden suffered serious complications in the lungs and died a natural and quiet death. The official, who asked to remain anonymous, stated to The Observer of Pakistan that he had himself attended the funeral of bin Laden and saw his face prior to burial in Tora Bora 10 days ago. He mentioned that 30 of al-Qa'da fighters attended the burial as well as members of his family and some friends from the Taleban. In the farewell ceremony to his final rest guns were fired in the air. The official stated that it is difficult to pinpoint the burial location of bin Laden because according to the Wahhabi tradition no mark is left by the grave. He stressed that it is unlikely that the American forces would ever uncover any traces of bin Laden.

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