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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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just another day
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Living with the Alaskan Inuits!!
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 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| faster wrote: |
| just another day wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
The OP seems to think that each potential teacher and each employer are operating as free and independent agents. They are not.
As mentioned, the employers collude. Hakwon associations and the government set the basic contract conditions for the vast majority of jobs.
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damm is that really true? |
Yeah, pretty much. The hagwon lobby is a very powerful one. |
jeez. no wonder the student foreigners in korea seem so much happier than a lot of the people here...
man, i hope that anger is directed at the hakwon's rather than the general korean public.
i went thru messy employment transitions before in finance, (got 6.5 weeks severance instead of the standard 4 months), i was pretty pissed off. |
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robertmanicni
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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I don't agree with the OP at all.
Schools in Korea are finding it increasingly hard to find teachers due to the worsening reputation of both working in Korea and the hagwons themselves.
The large chains mentioned by the OP all find it very difficult to replace the large numbers of teachers who leave every month. |
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robertmanicni
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think there is any other country in the world where it is so easy for a completely unqualified person to earn a very good salary (even by Western standards) as an Enlish teacher. This implies that demand outweighs supply, as is in fact the case. |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| just another day wrote: |
| faster wrote: |
| just another day wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
The OP seems to think that each potential teacher and each employer are operating as free and independent agents. They are not.
As mentioned, the employers collude. Hakwon associations and the government set the basic contract conditions for the vast majority of jobs.
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damm is that really true? |
Yeah, pretty much. The hagwon lobby is a very powerful one. |
jeez. no wonder the student foreigners in korea seem so much happier than a lot of the people here...
man, i hope that anger is directed at the hakwon's rather than the general korean public.
i went thru messy employment transitions before in finance, (got 6.5 weeks severance instead of the standard 4 months), i was pretty pissed off. |
Yep.
Luckily I've always had it pretty good here. Charmed life or whatever, and I'm out of the hagwon world (not in pub schools either) now, too. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Note to the OP.
The model you suggest requires equal access to information and free flow of goods and services.
Neither exist in this case so the model does NOT work.
Outside regulations skew the curves.
Supply is regulated by immigration.
Demand far exceeds supply for teachers BUT
market conditions exist that make it impossible for prices to intersect quantity on the supply/demand curve.
Schools are limited in regards to class size and prices they can charge so the money they can pay is also not open to free market conditions.
Teachers do not have equal and free access to school information again skewing the curves.
Too bad you never made it past econ 101. |
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Note to the OP.
The model you suggest requires equal access to information and free flow of goods and services.
Neither exist in this case so the model does NOT work.
Outside regulations skew the curves.
Supply is regulated by immigration.
Demand far exceeds supply for teachers BUT
market conditions exist that make it impossible for prices to intersect quantity on the supply/demand curve.
Schools are limited in regards to class size and prices they can charge so the money they can pay is also not open to free market conditions.
Teachers do not have equal and free access to school information again skewing the curves.
Too bad you never made it past econ 101. |
I will agree that there is only so much money available to pay teachers. What employees can insist on is being treated well. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
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The reason that there are so many problems in Korea with the English language industry is that there is always plentiful supply [of teachers].
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Funny, I thought we usually had a shortage of teachers, and that the market isn't at equilibrium.
I also thought that most of the problems are caused by the demand side of the equation. I.e. administrators can be disorganized, run crap classes, hire anybody, and get away with it because demand is so strong.
I don't forsee the average salary ever going up. Koreans won't tolerate it. |
I've had friends who remember when the average salary was 1.2 million. Over time salaries generally rise. And remember, there is increased accountability and responsibility being laid on teachers. Salaries will have to rise to take that into account, or the supply of teachers will drop. Nobody wants to do more for less. |
I don't have any salary figures (I don't think they exist), but I do not think that the average first year salary has moved from around 2.0 since I arrived in 2002. Then you have to factor in that inflation has been holding steady at around 4% per year. I'm not an economist, but I think that equals a net drop in your average hagwon workers' purchasing power and real wages.
If you look at Japan, starting wages at cram schools hasn't moved since the early nineties. When you look around the world, EFL teachers make just enough to get by. Korea is an anomaly in terms of salaries, and I think it is slowly falling into line with the rest of the world. The writing is on the wall. Cost of living will continue to rise and eat into your ability to save. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| The_Conservative wrote: |
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| Quote: |
The reason that there are so many problems in Korea with the English language industry is that there is always plentiful supply [of teachers].
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Funny, I thought we usually had a shortage of teachers, and that the market isn't at equilibrium.
I also thought that most of the problems are caused by the demand side of the equation. I.e. administrators can be disorganized, run crap classes, hire anybody, and get away with it because demand is so strong.
I don't forsee the average salary ever going up. Koreans won't tolerate it. |
I've had friends who remember when the average salary was 1.2 million. Over time salaries generally rise. And remember, there is increased accountability and responsibility being laid on teachers. Salaries will have to rise to take that into account, or the supply of teachers will drop. Nobody wants to do more for less. |
I don't have any salary figures (I don't think they exist), but I do not think that the average first year salary has moved from around 2.0 since I arrived in 2002. Then you have to factor in that inflation has been holding steady at around 4% per year. I'm not an economist, but I think that equals a net drop in your average hagwon workers' purchasing power and real wages.
Actually it seems to have gone up to 2.2 million. There were a few threads on this about a year or two ago. And as more teachers move into public schools, hakwons will have to pay more.
If you look at Japan, starting wages at cram schools hasn't moved since the early nineties. When you look around the world, EFL teachers make just enough to get by. Korea is an anomaly in terms of salaries, and I think it is slowly falling into line with the rest of the world. The writing is on the wall. Cost of living will continue to rise and eat into your ability to save. |
We can always leave and go elsewhere. Salaries in the M.E are considerably higher. And if that is too dangerous for your taste, China and India are booming. China's wages for ESL teachers in particular have sharply risen and continue to do so. A few teachers who've worked at international schools in China claim the pay is comparable to Korea. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| robertmanicni wrote: |
I don't agree with the OP at all.
Schools in Korea are finding it increasingly hard to find teachers due to the worsening reputation of both working in Korea and the hagwons themselves.
The large chains mentioned by the OP all find it very difficult to replace the large numbers of teachers who leave every month. |
Well I think that a lot of that is increasing hiring by public schools eating into the hiring pool for the chain hagwons. Public school jobs are more secure and you know you're going to get paid on time so they're sucking up a lot of newbies. Right now the big hagwons are mostly holding steady on the low wages, but something has to give eventually as long as public school hiring stays strong... |
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Boreal
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Let's see. I'm getting paid notably less than I would as a teacher back in the US, the benefits package makes up for a good chunk of that. Cost of living is a bit lower, although not exceptionally so. I can save more than I could in the US, but not by a large stretch, and I could save far more in the US if I took a different job that's more focused on income.
No, trying to alter wages won't do much. 2.8 at a crappy hagwon is still worse than 2.0 at a good school. That 800k just goes towards forgetting you live in Korea. Conditions matter. 14+ days vacation, weekends not counted, flexible vacation time, those are appealing. Housing with guaranteed a/c. Less than 25:1 student:teacher ratio. Short commute. No Saturdays for any reason. Those are perks that make the job better.
When I have my master's finished and a couple more years under my belt, I'll take issue with being offered under 3.0. Of course, that much time is enough to find a lucrative corporate or university job. None of those come around, there's other countries that are willing to pay better for the highly qualified.
It's the non-monetary things that add up to teacher departure. That, and hagwons that grift/don't pay, but that's a completely different issue. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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The reason that there are so many problems in Korea with the English language industry is that there is always plentiful supply.
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The surplus "supply" of teachers is largely created by illegal teachers here on phony diplomas, and Russians/Nigerians passed off as legit by rotten hogwan bosses. |
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mysterious700
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: Re: comments on comments about my comments |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| ou812 wrote: |
Salary: 2.8 m / month for total of 30 hours per week. Overtime at 22,000 hour.
>Compared with average of 2.0-2.4 per month with overtime at 18,000-25,000 per hour (however getting over 20,000 is not easy)
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You are getting ripped off!
I get 2.0m base plus 200k regional bonus.
22 hour maximum class load.
For six hours of o/t a week I get 180k per week 0r 720k per month.
This is an entry level public school gig.
14 days vacation all the holidays, pension, medical and taxes all legit.
Housing provided is very good (no a/c).
There people teching for quite a bit more than 2.8m.
Your supply and demand theory really isn't working here.
The more qualified/experienced teachers are pulling in their just due.
The newbies that are getting screwed have not performed due dilligence in their job search plain and simple. |
2 million and a 200, 000 regional bonus? Where is this place? How long have you been here? As far as I understand, schools start at 1.8 mil, then go to 2.0 second year. If you live outside Seoul, Gyeonggi - DO, you get a 100,000 won bonus. If you have a TESOL certificate and stay for 5 or more years, you can go up to 2.5 million won a month (or 2.4 in Seoul). Individual schools must pay more. I gotta look into this. Damn! |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ah, how times have changed. Supply has increased too much. Hopefully, the economy will get better so our wages will go up again..... |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Ah, it's nice to finally be out of the hagwon game. I'm now employed by a University which doesn't offer housing, but offers 3M and 15 hours/week. My apartment costs 300k, so that means I'm making 2.7 with housing. Granted, it's not the best deal around, but I have a meager BS, a few years hagwon experience and no other qualifications.
As others have said, the best gigs come by word of mouth. My last Hagwon gig offered a similar deal, but the vacation was crap, and the hours were 30/week max. I mostly worked around 20 or so, but it sometimes got up to 30. The hagwon, which was the best one I've worked for since arriving over four years ago came by word of mouth. The university gig did as well.
There are some good gigs advertised here and on other sites, but the best ones generally don't need to pay for advertising or recruiters.
One job, which may be exempt from the previous statement, but I have no experience working for is some private elementary school in Northern Seoul whose name eludes me. It has a lot of contact time, but a decent vacation gig and pay based on the US dollar rather than the Korean won. So, if you have a yearly salary of 40,000 USD, rather than getting 3.33M/month, you get 3.8M.
Anyways, I couldn't land the job above, but the job I have now is pretty sweet. I can also pretend I'm a real professor. |
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Satchel Paige
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
Ah, it's nice to finally be out of the hagwon game. I'm now employed by a University which doesn't offer housing, but offers 3M and 15 hours/week. My apartment costs 300k, so that means I'm making 2.7 with housing. Granted, it's not the best deal around, but I have a meager BS, a few years hagwon experience and no other qualifications.
As others have said, the best gigs come by word of mouth. My last Hagwon gig offered a similar deal, but the vacation was crap, and the hours were 30/week max. I mostly worked around 20 or so, but it sometimes got up to 30. The hagwon, which was the best one I've worked for since arriving over four years ago came by word of mouth. The university gig did as well.
There are some good gigs advertised here and on other sites, but the best ones generally don't need to pay for advertising or recruiters.
One job, which may be exempt from the previous statement, but I have no experience working for is some private elementary school in Northern Seoul whose name eludes me. It has a lot of contact time, but a decent vacation gig and pay based on the US dollar rather than the Korean won. So, if you have a yearly salary of 40,000 USD, rather than getting 3.33M/month, you get 3.8M.
Anyways, I couldn't land the job above, but the job I have now is pretty sweet. I can also pretend I'm a real professor. |
How exactly do you network to find these kinds of positions? Hang out in bars? KOTESOL meetings? |
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