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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: Re: "Jena 6": America the not-so-beautiful |
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| just4u wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
Just read about this story, after Jesse Jackson reportedly said that Barrack Obama is acting like a White man, based on his "lack" of response to this story. Shocking, seems like things may not be too different in the Deep South in 2007, as they were in 1957...
http://www.colorofchange.org/jena/ |
No, things aren't too different. A time warp analogy is a very good way of putting it, it certainly does feel that way at times. I live in this region and you have to walk very carefully here. People can't just "get mad" at each other like they do in Korea, there is a lot of racial tension and the wrong word or even the wrong look to someone who is bothering you could easily be misinterpreted as a racial thing if the person happens to be of a different race. (I'm talking about all races here-this is not just going in one direction.) Add that to elders who are easily offended if you don't kiss their arse (especially if they're rich-it's realllly hard if you've ever been a server) and you had better watch your ass, every day.
You all have it easy in Korea. After coming back here, I can't believe I ever complained about Korea. Taiwan, possibly (it's hard to make money there just like here) but Korea....pssshawww. |
Sounds like some Americans might be surprised about what kind of country they are still living in. Oh, pardon me, only in the deep south, I'm sure Confederate flags and are only popular down there, and I'm sure that in the Northern states, there is very little separation of blacks and whites economically, socially, and within cities, geographically.  |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You seem quite touchy |
You are right. I am quite touchy about negative stereotyping, which has been the topic of every exchange you and I have had, totally aside from any discussion of the events in Jena.
Odd that you should say I'm being defensive. I even posted some stats on lynchings. I'm well aware of and comfortable discussing the difficulties the US has had with race relations over the centuries. But that hasn't really been the topic I have been addressing with you.
It appears to me that if anyone is being defensive, it is you. With each post the tone seems to grow increasingly hysterical.
| Quote: |
| You shouldn't be. Americans have shown with the Iraq invasion, the Patriot Act, and electing George Bush 1 1/2 times that you are not very good at critical thinking when left on your own. |
I think I can safely say that this is the third time in this one thread that you have stereotyped Americans. I'm fairly sure, since you mention '1 1/2', that you know the Election of '00 was a dead heat. How can you then follow that with 'you [Americans] are not very good at critical thinking'?
I can't help but think that there is more going on in your head than a simple case of mis-speaking.
So by all means, continue to discuss Jena with other posters. I still want to address the issue of your 3 cases of stereotyping. |
It's called rhetoric, Ya-Ta boy. I'm sure you didn't think I was actually implying with my thread that all Americans are racists, yet you took a swing and went for the rhetorical home run by saying I was painting all Americans with the same brush. I'm not, of course, and you know that.
What's wrong with pointing out a very ugly incident that clearly touches the nerves of many Americans? What's wrong with pointing out that many Americans can't find any other countries on the map, and can't even identify other states? What's wrong with pointing out that Americans who voted for Bush a SECOND time are buffoons? I mean, at this point in history, it's never been easier to take cracks at Americans, and rightly so. Sorry if it hurts, but I'm sure when Hilary gets elected, things will be much better for you guys.
And, just to put some wind in your sails, America is the leader in just about everything. You have lots of things to be proud of, Jena and racial inequality just doesn't happen to be one of them.
By all means, feel free to bring up the problems you see with Canada socially, and I would be more than happy to debate you on them. You'll find that Canadians are very aware of their own countries deficiencies, and will often bring them up in casual conversation, along with its' positives. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It's called rhetoric, Ya-Ta boy. I'm sure you didn't think I was actually implying with my thread that all Americans are racists |
I call it distortion and stereotyping. I take you at your word. Obviously, you don't think I should believe what you say.
I'll make a note of that. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's called rhetoric, Ya-Ta boy. I'm sure you didn't think I was actually implying with my thread that all Americans are racists |
I call it distortion and stereotyping. I take you at your word. Obviously, you don't think I should believe what you say.
I'll make a note of that. |
And I'll make a note that you believe that I think 300,000,000 people can think with one brain, and that you are unaware of the fine art of rhetoric.
Oh, and please use some quotes to show how I have:
a) distorted
b) stereotyped
I'm quite sure you won't find anything worth posting. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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but of course it is representative of that country.
Not a difficult concept. |
If 'representative' means 'typical', 'normal', 'average', then I have to disagree with you on the principle that 'Dog bites man' is not news, but 'Man bites dog' is news.
Why do you insist that it's the negative event that is representative and not the positive?
You are too blase with your distortion. |
Just to help you along Ya-Ta, this is where you first went off the rails. By "representative", it appears you actually concluded I meant rep. in the sense of typical, normal, average. This of course was not the representative I meant. It was representative as in, a display of something. As I said, it is a SMALL SNAPSHOT, but a snapshot (representation) nonetheless. Clearly you must think I know nothing about the U.S. to believe that certain citizens of Jena, a small town in the Deep South, would have similar racial beliefs as towns and cities in other parts of the country. Now, if you think that this means that Jena should only be taken as a Louisiana phenomenon, many people would agree with that. Just not the people who marched on Jena, nor those who saw the racists portrayed (unknowingly) in Borat, nor the 70,000 fans who show up to Ol' Miss games with Confederate Flags to cheer on the Black players...I could go on, but I'm sure you can figure out where I'm going with this.
I look forward to hearing the examples of my stereotyping etc. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Despite your rhetoric, it might surprise you to know that I have always been a great supporter of the American people... |
Sure. As Ya-ta Boy has pointed out, we have seen this line-of-thinking before. You are not really antisemitic. Your best-friend is a Jew. See? Blah, blah, blah. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Despite your rhetoric, it might surprise you to know that I have always been a great supporter of the American people... |
Sure. As Ya-ta Boy has pointed out, we have seen this line-of-thinking before. You are not really antisemitic. Your best-friend is a Jew. See? Blah, blah, blah. |
You sound like the tide of drones after 9-11 who bought into Bush's "Your either with us, or against us". There is a shade of gray, you know. It doesn't always have to be all or nothing. Why can't I like Americans in general, without questioning what the hell is going on America with many Americans? As I said earlier, you should welcome critical thought, because after 9/11, America's critical thought button seemingly went on pause. If you don't believe that, you're probably not much of a fan of Michael Moore's work. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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More crude stereotypes. Lo que sea. Prototypically Canadian, however.
Enjoy yourself here, Blaseblasphemener. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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I am going to give my 2 cents on this story as someone who has lived in both the U.S. and Canada. I have also lived in the U.S. South and have been to Louisiana, and I have a brother-in-law from Louisiana. Does it make me unbiased? No, it doesn't, but it would indicate I would have more experience to analyze this and to say Blasphemer is being unfair.
The United States is a large country with 300 million people. Are there general differences between Canada and the U.S.? Yes, there definitely are such as more Americans attend church and are more religious than Canadians, but going into generalities too much involves dismissing regional differences. Is Vermont for example like Louisiana? I believe Vermont elected the only socialist to become a senator, and he did a good job. That would never happen in Louisiana. Unions are strong in the North, relatively speaking, they are weak in the South. People are viewed as cold in some parts of the East Coast, and people in the South are considered warm. My point is the regional differences should not be overlooked. After all, the North fought the South and the South had slaves; the North didn't have slaves in 1850.
You would not have stories of whites putting up nooses even as a practical joke in a school and nor would there be a tree where only whites sit under. Also, in Georgia, there was a school where the dances were segregated until this year. That is a good thing that there was desegration of the dance. That's positive. Was that story from New York or California? No. So saying what happens in San Francisco is a snapshot of what happens in Baltimore, Maryland wouldn't make sense anymore than saying Jena is similar to Brooklyn. Give us a break. I don't think most Canadians think that or Americans.
Do Canadians think America has worse racial problems? Yes, and some Americans do, too. However, the US has a large African American population, Canada does not. Both the whites and blacks have serious problems of racism though many have come closer to each other, and too often only the prejudice of whites is mentioned and not that of African Americans when, frankly, I have seen my fair share of prejudiced people from both races.
There is racism all over America in all regions, but it doesn't all manifest in the same way. From what I gathered, many people from other parts of the US were shaking their heads at the idea of nooses being put up, but don't sympathize with siding with an African American who assaulted a white teenager which is a crime in any country in the world. Also, there are many great people in Louisiana and other areas. It is too easy to this event to label a whole country. It is like using the murder of the Indian girl surnamed Virk in B.C. to say Canadians are like those killers of that girl. It isn't that simple in this case. You can't draw a generalization about all the regions and peoples of the U.S. from this. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
I am going to give my 2 cents on this story as someone who has lived in both the U.S. and Canada. I have also lived in the U.S. South and have been to Louisiana, and I have a brother-in-law from Louisiana. Does it make me unbiased? No, it doesn't, but it would indicate I would have more experience to analyze this and to say Blasphemer is being unfair.
The United States is a large country with 300 million people. Are there general differences between Canada and the U.S.? Yes, there definitely are such as more Americans attend church and are more religious than Canadians, but going into generalities too much involves dismissing regional differences. Is Vermont for example like Louisiana? I believe Vermont elected the only socialist to become a senator, and he did a good job. That would never happen in Louisiana. Unions are strong in the North, relatively speaking, they are weak in the South. People are viewed as cold in some parts of the East Coast, and people in the South are considered warm. My point is the regional differences should not be overlooked. After all, the North fought the South and the South had slaves; the North didn't have slaves in 1850.
You would not have stories of whites putting up nooses even as a practical joke in a school and nor would there be a tree where only whites sit under. Also, in Georgia, there was a school where the dances were segregated until this year. That is a good thing that there was desegration of the dance. That's positive. Was that story from New York or California? No. So saying what happens in San Francisco is a snapshot of what happens in Baltimore, Maryland wouldn't make sense anymore than saying Jena is similar to Brooklyn. Give us a break. I don't think most Canadians think that or Americans.
Do Canadians think America has worse racial problems? Yes, and some Americans do, too. However, the US has a large African American population, Canada does not. Both the whites and blacks have serious problems of racism though many have come closer to each other, and too often only the prejudice of whites is mentioned and not that of African Americans when, frankly, I have seen my fair share of prejudiced people from both races.
There is racism all over America in all regions, but it doesn't all manifest in the same way. From what I gathered, many people from other parts of the US were shaking their heads at the idea of nooses being put up, but don't sympathize with siding with an African American who assaulted a white teenager which is a crime in any country in the world. Also, there are many great people in Louisiana and other areas. It is too easy to this event to label a whole country. It is like using the murder of the Indian girl surnamed Virk in B.C. to say Canadians are like those killers of that girl. It isn't that simple in this case. You can't draw a generalization about all the regions and peoples of the U.S. from this. |
Well said, but I still disagree with the idea that I am being unfair. Jena is reflection of racial problems in the U.S.
It doesn't mean that there aren't significant regional differences. Albertans in Canada are known as "rednecks", Quebecers are seen as often being ethnocentric, and we have serious issues with the native population in Canada. Those are "our" issues, amongst many. Jena is one of your issues, and it is something that is not beautiful about your beautiful nation. That was my point, and I feel it has been wildly distorted by Ya-Ta Boy, but I will forgive him his rhetorical license. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Despite your rhetoric, it might surprise you to know that I have always been a great supporter of the American people... |
Sure. As Ya-ta Boy has pointed out, we have seen this line-of-thinking before. You are not really antisemitic. Your best-friend is a Jew. See? Blah, blah, blah. |
You sound like the tide of drones after 9-11 who bought into Bush's "Your either with us, or against us". There is a shade of gray, you know. It doesn't always have to be all or nothing. Why can't I like Americans in general, without questioning what the hell is going on America with many Americans? As I said earlier, you should welcome critical thought, because after 9/11, America's critical thought button seemingly went on pause. If you don't believe that, you're probably not much of a fan of Michael Moore's work. |
I am not a fan of Michael Moore's (selective editing) work. However, he's got his fans so good for him. He's making the most of a free market economy.
I think what Gopher is getting at is that you have got to examine the whole story, not just Jena, or the confederate waving NASCAR dads. There are many things going on at any one time. So just for the sake of balance in this thread, give this article a read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/22/us/22church.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp&oref=slogin
P.S. Also, my philosophy is completely different from yours as I believe in lower taxes, smaller governments and more free markets. Yes even the free market can provide Health Care with high quality service. You might consider this wrong, but this is my philosophy. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
More crude stereotypes. Lo que sea. Prototypically Canadian, however.
Enjoy yourself here, Blaseblasphemener. |
There you go, stereotyping Canadians.
Sorry, I didn't attend a Prep school. What the hell does Lo que sea mean, you pompous Latin speaking arse? |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
More crude stereotypes. Lo que sea. Prototypically Canadian, however.
Enjoy yourself here, Blaseblasphemener. |
There you go, stereotyping Canadians.
Sorry, I didn't attend a Prep school. What the hell does Lo que sea mean, you pompous Latin speaking arse? |
It's Spanish(not Latin)
Lo que sea.: "Whatever it is." Also, simply "Whatever."
Sea lo que sea. : "Be it as it may."
Last edited by Pluto on Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Despite your rhetoric, it might surprise you to know that I have always been a great supporter of the American people... |
Sure. As Ya-ta Boy has pointed out, we have seen this line-of-thinking before. You are not really antisemitic. Your best-friend is a Jew. See? Blah, blah, blah. |
You sound like the tide of drones after 9-11 who bought into Bush's "Your either with us, or against us". There is a shade of gray, you know. It doesn't always have to be all or nothing. Why can't I like Americans in general, without questioning what the hell is going on America with many Americans? As I said earlier, you should welcome critical thought, because after 9/11, America's critical thought button seemingly went on pause. If you don't believe that, you're probably not much of a fan of Michael Moore's work. |
I am not a fan of Michael Moore's (selective editing) work. However, he's got his fans so good for him. He's making the most of a free market economy.
I think what Gopher is getting at is that you have got to examine the whole story, not just Jena, or the confederate waving NASCAR dads. There are many things going on at any one time. So just for the sake of balance in this thread, give this article a read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/22/us/22church.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp&oref=slogin
P.S. Also, my philosophy is completely different from yours as I believe in lower taxes, smaller governments and more free markets. Yes even the free market can provide Health Care with high quality service. You might consider this wrong, but this is my philosophy. |
How do you know what I believe? Do you assume that because I'm Canadian, I must be a hard-core Socialist? Hilarious. . As mentioned in the Sarkozy (sic) thread in this forum, Canada underwent a huge reduction in it's civil service and government services is in the 90s. Also at that time, Alberta underwent drastic measures to balance it's books and lower taxes, while privatizing several profitable government businesses, most notably the Liquor Stores in the province. Alberta is also the only province in Canada with no provincial sales tax, and it, along with most other provinces, has battled the federal government over interference in provincial matters.
As for the health care argument, I absolutely believe that a free market can provide quality care. The question is, what about the 50 million Americans without health insurance, and what about those Americans with health insurance that say the system doesn't have their best interests in mind? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
More crude stereotypes. Lo que sea. Prototypically Canadian, however.
Enjoy yourself here, Blaseblasphemener. |
There you go, stereotyping Canadians.
Sorry, I didn't attend a Prep school. What the hell does Lo que sea mean, you pompous Latin speaking arse? |
It's Spanish(not Latin) for "Whatever it is." |
Thanks for the Spanish lesson. Now, if I could only figure out how "More crude stereotypes", and, "Whatever it is" go to together. |
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