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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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and this regarding the shortcomings of the 9/11 commission report:
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| The report did not include testimony by Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta which describes the situation in the Presidential Emergency Operating Center with Vice President Cheney as American Airlines Flight 77 approached the Pentagon on 9/11/01: "There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And--" Yet despite such a detailed description of the events that day, the only mention of Mineta in the Commission Report is on p. 326, that Mineta was part of a group that met with Bush at the end of September 11 to review the events of the day.[7] |
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# The report did not include the testimony of Former CIA director George Tenet to the Commission in January of 2004 in which he said that in a July, 2001 meeting with Condoleezza Rice, he had warned of an imminent threat from al-Qaeda. Commission members Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton stated that they had not been told about the meeting. But the Boston Globe reported that "it turns out that the panel was, in fact, told about the meeting, according to the interview transcript and Democratic Commission member Richard Ben-Veniste, who sat in on the interview with Tenet."[9], [10]
# The report did not include the testimony of World Trade Center janitor William Rodriguez, who reported explosions in the basement of the North Tower, moments before the first plane hit.[11] |
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* The report states: "The threat of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners within the United States -- and using them as guided missiles -- was not recognized by NORAD before 9/11." (The Report repeats the assertion three times.) Yet a USA Today article, "NORAD had drills of jets as weapons" describes a pre-9/11 NORAD drill involving hijacked jetliners from airports in Utah and Washington state. [12] (As an aside, the Report does mention briefly on page 537 the case of Samuel Byck who attempted to hijack a jetliner to crash into the White House in 1974, resulting in the deaths of an airport police officer and a pilot as well as his own suicide.)
* The report states[13]: "The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed the fighter escort would be discreet, 'vectored to a position five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft,' where it could perform its mission to monitor the aircraft's flight path." Yet the FAA order referenced by the footnote for this statement (Order 7610.4J: Special Military Operations), states[14]: |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report#Alleged_omissions |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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and this:
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| Clarke�s account that Cheney is giving shootdown authorization well before 10:00 a.m. matches Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta�s account of seeing Cheney giving what he interprets as a shootdown order before the Pentagon crash. [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003] However, the 9/11 Commission later asserts that Cheney doesn�t make the shootdown decision until about 10:00 a.m. (see (Between 10:00 a.m.-10:15 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004] |
why would the commission omit the word of a member of the cabinet, and the highest ranking terrorism expert, from the official report. Why the selective editing? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Air Force One takes off and quickly gains altitude. One passenger later says, �It was like a rocket. For a good ten minutes, the plane was going almost straight up.� [CBS News, 9/11/2002] Once the plane reaches cruising altitude, it flies in circles. Journalists on board sense this because the television reception for a local station generally remains good. �Apparently Bush, Cheney, and the Secret Service argue over the safety of Bush coming back to Washington.� [Salon, 9/12/2001; Daily Telegraph, 12/16/2001] For much of the day Bush is plagued by connectivity problems in trying to call Cheney and others. He is forced to use an ordinary cell phone instead of his secure phone. |
sounds like a one day coup d'etat. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| very convenient that the patsy, I mean the president, was out of DC on the 9/11. verrrrrrrrrry convenient. cheney had control of pretty much everything that day, didn't he? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheney will later say that the WTC coming down �was a shock to everybody�it certainly was to me.� [PBS, 9/9/2002] However, if he is indeed shocked, this is not how Cheney appears to others in the room. One witness who is present will later recall that, as the South Tower collapses, there is �a groan in the room that I won�t forget, ever. It seemed like one groan from everyone.� However, Cheney makes no sound, but closes his eyes for a long, slow blink. The witness says, �I remember turning my head and looking at the vice president, and his expression never changed.� [Washington Post, 6/24/2007] According to Mary Matalin, a counselor to the vice president, Cheney says nothing in response to the collapse, but �he emoted in a way that he emotes, which was to stop.� [CNN, 9/11/2002; CNN, 9/11/2002] When he is told that a casualty estimate ranges well into the thousands, the vice president reportedly just nods grimly. [Newsweek, 12/31/2001] According to the Washington Post, three people who are present say they see no sign now or later �of the profound psychological transformation that has often been imputed to Cheney.� What they see is �extraordinary self-containment and a rapid shift of focus to the machinery of power. While others assessed casualties and the work of �first responders,� Cheney began planning for a conflict that would call upon lawyers as often as soldiers and spies.� He will promptly begin assembling the legal team that subsequently assists him in expanding presidential power (see (After 10:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [Washington Post, 6/24/2007] |
Riveting reading. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| On the morning of September 11th, 2001, *beep* Cheney was running several war games in the north eastern portion of the United States. |
Got a link to support that?
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| Some of these drill were scheduled for later in the year but *beep* Cheney rescheduled them and made sure that they all took place on the same day. This was unprecedented. |
Got a link to support that?
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| From from September 2000 to June 2001, 67 planes steered off course. All 67 times our air defense systems worked as they should, and interceptors were launched. |
So? They weren't 10 minutes out from their target.
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| You may remember this happening when Payne Stewart and his crew died in flight. |
So? How long did it take to get authorization to shoot down his plane if it looked like it was going to threaten a civilian population?
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| On September 11th, 2001, when *beep* Cheney was running his war games, 4 jet airliners were supposedly hijacked, and all our systems that have worked flawlessly 67 times that year, failed. Coincidence? |
In the 67 cases, how long did it take to get jets in the air and intercept?
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| While these facts seem to incriminate Cheney, all you can do within reason is ask these questions: |
Ah questions. Answers?
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| In the age of ICBMs, are we to believe that we have to practice defending the nation against Russian bombers in the north eastern portion of the US? |
Because even today the Russians are flying missions at the North American coast. Bombers no longer fly over cities and drop iron bombs. They fly in and launch cruise missiles. Unlike ICBMs, cruise missiles are undetectable, or nearly so. So bombers are still relevant in this day and age as platforms for carrying weapons to the American coast. The article author should realize this. It's a rather simple concept.
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| Why did Bush and Cheney insist on being questioned by the commission together, without being taped, without taking an oath and with no records kept? |
Because they might want to fudge things to make it seem like they weren't asleep or maybe they have to lie to keep defense secrets. Also, that's pretty standard for the executive. They do not want to kow tow to congress.
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| Use your common sense. Do you think the global intelligence powers failed this badly? |
Yeah.
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| Do you think men who could barely pilot a 2 seat plane can navigate across several states and find their target? |
Do the people who trained them suggest they didn't attain this skill level? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| David Addington, who is Dick Cheney�s general counsel and legal advisor, had been walking towards his Virginia home, after having to leave the Eisenhower Executive Office Building. This building, located next to the White House, was evacuated at around 9:45 a.m. But he receives a message from the White House telling him to turn around, because the vice president needs him. After Addington joins Cheney in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC) below the East Wing of the White House, the pair reportedly begin �contemplating the founding question of the legal revolution to come: What extraordinary powers will the president need for his response?� Later in the day, Addington connects by secure video with Timothy Flanigan, the deputy White House counsel, who is in the White House Situation Room. John Yoo, the deputy chief of the Office of Legal Counsel, is also patched in from the Justice Department�s command center. White House counsel Alberto Gonzales joins them later. This forms the core legal team that Cheney will oversee after the terrorist attacks. Along with these allies of his, Cheney will provide what the Washington Post calls �the rationale and political muscle to drive far-reaching legal changes through the White House, the Justice Department and the Pentagon,� which will free the president to fight the war on terror, �as he saw fit.� [CNN, 9/11/2001; CNN, 9/12/2001; Washington Post, 6/24/2007] |
You've just seen a second plane hit the twin towers. There are thousands of planes in the air. And this is your response? Shouldn't he be wondering about where the next plane is going to attack? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The report did not include testimony by Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta which describes the situation in the Presidential Emergency Operating Center with Vice President Cheney as American Airlines Flight 77 approached the Pentagon on 9/11/01: |
How is this bad or how does it support your hypothesis?
| Quote: |
| # The report did not include the testimony of Former CIA director George Tenet to the Commission in January of 2004 in which he said that in a July, 2001 meeting with Condoleezza Rice, he had warned of an imminent threat from al-Qaeda. Commission members Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton stated that they had not been told about the meeting. But the Boston Globe reported that "it turns out that the panel was, in fact, told about the meeting, according to the interview transcript and Democratic Commission member Richard Ben-Veniste, who sat in on the interview with Tenet."[9], [10 |
There was a failure in intelligence and the chain of command. So?
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| # The report did not include the testimony of World Trade Center janitor William Rodriguez, who reported explosions in the basement of the North Tower, moments before the first plane hit.[11] |
From wiki:
This is notable because Rodriguez also complains that his accounts of events have been ignored by official investigative bodies. Yet, when given the opportunity to put his observations on the public record with investigators from NIST - the very body investigating the cause of the collapse of the twin towers - he said not a word about explosives planted in the basement.
Sounds like he was not a reliable witness.
| Quote: |
* The report states: "The threat of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners within the United States -- and using them as guided missiles -- was not recognized by NORAD before 9/11." (The Report repeats the assertion three times.) Yet a USA Today article, "NORAD had drills of jets as weapons" describes a pre-9/11 NORAD drill involving hijacked jetliners from airports in Utah and Washington state. [12] (As an aside, the Report does mention briefly on page 537 the case of Samuel Byck who attempted to hijack a jetliner to crash into the White House in 1974, resulting in the deaths of an airport police officer and a pilot as well as his own suicide.)
* The report states[13]: "The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed the fighter escort would be discreet, 'vectored to a position five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft,' where it could perform its mission to monitor the aircraft's flight path." Yet the FAA order referenced by the footnote for this statement (Order 7610.4J: Special Military Operations), states[14]: |
And what's so bad about this? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| On the morning of September 11th, 2001, *beep* Cheney was running several war games in the north eastern portion of the United States. |
Got a link to support that?
| Quote: |
| Some of these drill were scheduled for later in the year but *beep* Cheney rescheduled them and made sure that they all took place on the same day. This was unprecedented. |
Got a link to support that?
| Quote: |
| From from September 2000 to June 2001, 67 planes steered off course. All 67 times our air defense systems worked as they should, and interceptors were launched. |
So? They weren't 10 minutes out from their target.
| Quote: |
| You may remember this happening when Payne Stewart and his crew died in flight. |
So? How long did it take to get authorization to shoot down his plane if it looked like it was going to threaten a civilian population?
| Quote: |
| On September 11th, 2001, when *beep* Cheney was running his war games, 4 jet airliners were supposedly hijacked, and all our systems that have worked flawlessly 67 times that year, failed. Coincidence? |
In the 67 cases, how long did it take to get jets in the air and intercept?
| Quote: |
| While these facts seem to incriminate Cheney, all you can do within reason is ask these questions: |
Ah questions. Answers?
| Quote: |
| In the age of ICBMs, are we to believe that we have to practice defending the nation against Russian bombers in the north eastern portion of the US? |
Because even today the Russians are flying missions at the North American coast. Bombers no longer fly over cities and drop iron bombs. They fly in and launch cruise missiles. Unlike ICBMs, cruise missiles are undetectable, or nearly so. So bombers are still relevant in this day and age as platforms for carrying weapons to the American coast. The article author should realize this. It's a rather simple concept.
| Quote: |
| Why did Bush and Cheney insist on being questioned by the commission together, without being taped, without taking an oath and with no records kept? |
Because they might want to fudge things to make it seem like they weren't asleep or maybe they have to lie to keep defense secrets. Also, that's pretty standard for the executive. They do not want to kow tow to congress.
| Quote: |
| Use your common sense. Do you think the global intelligence powers failed this badly? |
Yeah.
| Quote: |
| Do you think men who could barely pilot a 2 seat plane can navigate across several states and find their target? |
Do the people who trained them suggest they didn't attain this skill level? |
Here's your link:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=dickCheney&timeline=complete_911_timeline |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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"mindmetoo"]
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| The report did not include testimony by Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta which describes the situation in the Presidential Emergency Operating Center with Vice President Cheney as American Airlines Flight 77 approached the Pentagon on 9/11/01: |
How is this bad or how does it support your hypothesis? |
I am responding to your request for problems with the commission.
[
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| Quote: |
| quote]# The report did not include the testimony of Former CIA director George Tenet to the Commission in January of 2004 in which he said that in a July, 2001 meeting with Condoleezza Rice, he had warned of an imminent threat from al-Qaeda. Commission members Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton stated that they had not been told about the meeting. But the Boston Globe reported that "it turns out that the panel was, in fact, told about the meeting, according to the interview transcript and Democratic Commission member Richard Ben-Veniste, who sat in on the interview with Tenet."[9], [10 |
|
There was a failure in intelligence and the chain of command. So?[/quote]
commission failings.
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| Quote: |
| # The report did not include the testimony of World Trade Center janitor William Rodriguez, who reported explosions in the basement of the North Tower, moments before the first plane hit.[11] |
From wiki:
This is notable because Rodriguez also complains that his accounts of events have been ignored by official investigative bodies. Yet, when given the opportunity to put his observations on the public record with investigators from NIST - the very body investigating the cause of the collapse of the twin towers - he said not a word about explosives planted in the basement.
Sounds like he was not a reliable witness. |
You have a point.
| Quote: |
* The report states: "The threat of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners within the United States -- and using them as guided missiles -- was not recognized by NORAD before 9/11." (The Report repeats the assertion three times.) Yet a USA Today article, "NORAD had drills of jets as weapons" describes a pre-9/11 NORAD drill involving hijacked jetliners from airports in Utah and Washington state. [12] (As an aside, the Report does mention briefly on page 537 the case of Samuel Byck who attempted to hijack a jetliner to crash into the White House in 1974, resulting in the deaths of an airport police officer and a pilot as well as his own suicide.)
* The report states[13]: "The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed the fighter escort would be discreet, 'vectored to a position five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft,' where it could perform its mission to monitor the aircraft's flight path." Yet the FAA order referenced by the footnote for this statement (Order 7610.4J: Special Military Operations), states[14]: |
And what's so bad about this?[/quote]
They lied, or covered it up. That's what's wrong. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Mindmetoo, what about Cheney being the de facto commander-in-chief that day? another convenient coincedence, yes? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
I am responding to your request for problems with the commission.
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Okay. And so what? Even if the commission was botched in some way, as any human endeavor is botched and can't please everyone, does it advance your thesis at all, exclusive to the others I've laid out? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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