Korean Job Discussion Forums

[caulfield12]

I wonder if it will come to this?

I look at this from two perspectives. I have been married to a Russian (currently separated) for four years and the US Congress passed the IMBRA law, ostensibly to protect foreign women from potentially abusive husbands largely due to 2-3 famous murder cases and a number of DV allegations coming into Tahirih Justice Center in DC. This eventually led to a very difficult to enforce provision that all foreign women considering marriage to an American would be provided background/police/criminal checks before proceeding.

From a teacher's perspective, I am embarassed about the Karr and Neil situations. It makes all teachers (ESL or otherwise) in foreign countries, but especially in SE Asia, look suspect. OTOH, there is a significant amount of evidence that in both international marriages and ESL/foreign teachers, the abuse/pedophilia rate is on par and probably below the incidence rates in the US or most other "Western" countries.

I would have no problem submitting all this, although the next question is how many pedophiles or DV perpetrators have criminal backgrounds/histories that would show up in the system? 25%? 10%?

I teach in China, so we have a very comprehensive physical examination to go through.

In the US (I taught in public high schools there for four years), you have to submit this information in order to teach, and you have to go through a TB test I think. When I went to Colombia (South America) to teach at an international high school and private university, we also had to go through a police clearance, although I think this was more related to US/Colombian drug trade that preventing pedophile teachers from entering the country.

While I believe that it is the responsibility of government to protect its citizens (and, by extension, citizens of other countries)...I wonder what would be the "tipping point" here, forcing some kind of re-examination of both the background checks and certification(s) necessary to teach outside of the US?

The schools obviously have a responsibility to protect their children and to do much more extensive/thorough background and reference checks...how that Karr guy from Atlanta was able to move and teach in 10+ countries is beyond me. I guess it just goes to the desperation for teachers in some countries, despite dubious backgrounds.

As I said, I have no problem with background checks...but I think targetting JUST teachers (there was an article this weekend on AP about US "pedophilia/teacher abuse" cases as well) misses the point. Then someone will say, well, what about Catholic priests (I say this as a Catholic)???

At some point, we'll create a society where you have to submit your banking records and criminal history in order to speak with someone on-line, because, after all, isn't that where the majority of pedophiles/abusers operate, at least according to the stereotype. But I wonder who will protect the women who are raped/murdered because they meet someone through match.com or eharmony or one of the many "singles/dating" websites that proliferate on the Internet now?

I don't have any simple solutions. There's simply too much corruption and complicity between the police/government/tourism trade in Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and the Philippines to clean up the system unilaterally with laws in the US, Canada, etc. It's a step, but I have been researching this topic and I think I will give my money to Somaly Mam's organization AFESIP (www.afesip.org) that works to protect sex workers/children in four of those five aforementioned countries.

[superdave]

the problem with background checks is that they won't affect people who have never been caught.

the recent pedophile case is a good example. as far as i'm aware, he had no criminal history. maybe the police were watching him, or suspected him, but he had NO CRIMINAL background.

therefore, i think he would have passed any background check ...

this system is only going to catch some people. it's sure as hell not going to catch the people smart enough to commit crimes and not get caught, or smart enough to get around background checks.

it's just another bureaucratic bunch of crap that creates more paperwork but solves none of the problems.

for every evil foreigner in korea, i'll show you 10 corrupt koreans (most of whom are hogwan owners or employment recruiters). so any laws restricting foreigners are a case of the pot calling the kettle immoral.

we all know it ... but it still doesn't stop korea (as a nation) blaming outsiders for all their problems.

koreans still blame the IMF for the asian economic collapse, when it was IMF money (and related sanctions) that saved korea from total disaster ... but koreans don't see it that way. they borrowed hundreds of billions of dollars, couldn't pay it back, the economy collapsed, and somehow that's the IMF's fault!

[superdave]

[crusher_of_heads]

[caulfield12]

I guess it's not unlike background checks for buying guns, right...or waiting periods?

I would like to think this type of law actually prevents some loss of life...so the question is whether the burden on a society as a whole is worth the inconveniences to many. Or, for instance, look at all the time lost and inconvenience caused by the scanners/searches at airports since 9/11. We're led to believe that it has prevented further terrorist attacks...but is the cost worth it?

I guess that's a governmental/policy question.

I don't have any problems with this idea, in theory, simply because I think that at least 90% of are teachers are "okay" and the checks would provide some credibilty to the teaching profession...it certainly couldn't hurt, and I would want any teachers working with any children I had in the future to have them, so it doesn't seem too onerous to go through it.

Of course, in the US, there are the same issues...one of the teachers in our building was looking at girls inappropriately, trying to look at their skirts under the desk....my students simply said "he was creepy." Eventually, they got him for pornography on his computer because he was searching at work and the whole school district was on a network that could be checked. When they caught him, he was actually trying to hold onto the monitor as they pried it out of his hands...sad!

If I was just to guess, I would say about 90-95% of the teachers I worked with in the US were "okay," and maybe 80-85% of the teachers outside of the US so far...when I say "okay," I mean they were either good to excellent teachers or teachers I would NEVER suspect of doing anything questionable or abusive to a student. Well, I guess in the US...more really bad teachers in public schools, but not as many possible pedophiles? Of course, in the foreign countries I have visited, there was a considerable problem with men from that country (natives) as well, not just expats/foreigners/sex tourists. You usually don't have one without the other.

Maybe there's just more a cloud over the Asian teaching market because of the reputation of Thailand and the fact that both Karr and Neil were also inexorably connected to that country in the last year.

[caulfield12]

[caulfield12]

But Patrick, isn't this the nature of the teaching industry?

I can't think of many professions where you can have a Master's, two Master's degrees (like myself), or even a PhD and the majority of the public (and certainly most school administrations) feel they can't even trust the average teacher to do their job without looking over their shoulders and creating a "universalized" curriculum that is "idiot proof" but which also takes all the creativity/individuality out of teaching?

Now you combine that with being in another country...1) aren't you good enough to teach in the US?, 2) why would you teach here and make less money, 3) why can't you find a woman you like in your own country?, 4) are you here to teach or meet women/be a tourist? 5) why should you make more money when the "native" teachers in a particular might be better?

If you are a foreigner, you'll always be subjected to this type of scrutiny. It goes with the territory.

There are lots of positives to teaching in a foreign country. I won't recount them right now...we all know them. On the other hand, you have to have thick skin. Why is there a reason to be defensive?

If you do things you wouldn't do in your own country...you need to think about why you're doing them (i say this to nobody in particular...this could include giving money to a girl, having multiple g/f's, drug use, visiting prostitutes, a whole range of different possibilities that all male foreign teachers are exposed to).

[Bibbitybop]

[Milwaukiedave]

While slightly off-topic, I totally agree with this one:

[caulfield12]

To add to the list of why foreigners are paid more....

1) Student loans that aren't equated to local currency
2) Credit card debts " "
3) Costs of transportation back and forth, as well as communication
4) To maintain a "comfortable" lifestyle and/or make up for unsavory/dangerous reputation of some countries that have a difficult time attracting teaching talent

[superdave]

[caulfield12]

I also think the reputation of foreign teachers is important:

1) because if foreign teachers are lazy/unprepared or downright abusive, it can create lots of animosity between the foreigners and natives

2) foreigners are often "promoted" by international schools and ESL Centers as the primary reason for foreign parents to send their kids to the school/center, so they are under more intense scrutiny

3) we are representing our countries, so everything we can do can be magnified and held against not only us as individuals but against our countries as a general stereotype

4) because foreign teachers are almost never "permanent" but are itinerant and can always leave...we have a responsibility not to leave our own messes behind us and run away from the problems that are sometimes created by our presence

So it's not a matter of just "doing our jobs," I think that's the very MINIMUM criteria. In fact, just doing this isn't enough...because you really need to make some effort to assimilate into the culture, learn the language, develop friendships and connections with people from that country, even do volunteer work or community-service projects to show that you care about the job as much (or more) than a job in the US.

Of course, there are a lot of obstacles...past teachers' actions make it difficult for present and future teachers, overcontrolling parents can ruin any school and negate the good things about it.

But I still feel we have to be held to a higher standard, and hold other teachers to that standard as well...or it will come back to bite us, just as is happening in the US, when so many inferior/subpar teachers are protected by the unions, it makes it NEARLY impossible for any school district that really wants to improve to do so. I don't mean compliance with NCLB either, just general improvement...because many teachers are just "collecting a paycheck" and are not going to be motivated no matter what you do because of tenure.