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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone here have any personal experience with tasers? Or some knowledge?
I wonder if they have settings, like Star Trek phasers. High and low voltage.
I heard people lose control of their bowels when shocked. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
Does anyone here have any personal experience with tasers? Or some knowledge?
I. |
Might want to ask "keane" that one. Seeing as how he claims to be an expert on five-point takedowns or stuff like that. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I keep coming across the most appalling stories. I wonder if... |
Do you not find this coincidental? Have you considered that the press feeds on sensationalism and fails to report the mundane -- that is, the majority of what goes on in people's everyday lives, including, for example, everyday police activities?
How many wheelchair-bound women do you imagine police officers have tasered vis-a-vis non-wheelchair-bound women or any other more typical person who confronts responding officers in situations requiring police presence, for example?
Finally, if you are inclined to generalize and jump to conclusions, should you not at least confirm that you have solid, representative data? |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Morever this woman was mentally unbalanced and armed with knives and a hammer. Wheelbound chair or not she could have injured or even killed the officers had they hesitated. . Given that she was armed as well, they could not simply approach her and attempt to subdue her manually. Regardless they simply could not leave an pyschotic armed person alone.
So Big Bird what would YOU have done?
You can't talk her down...she's schizophrenic.
You can't approach her...she's got 2 knives and a hammer.
You can't just leave her alone...See the above 2 reasons.
So again BB what would YOU have done? |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have not read the instance of the lady in the wheelchair, nor do I care to. But given these conditions, I would have zapped her. if one zap was enough, stop there. if she was still a danger, zap her again.
Officers are in real danger sometimes and have to make split second decisions.
As I mentioned before, the danger of tasers is on the conscience of the government. if an officer is trained to use a taser, and told to use it when in danger, it's not their fault for using it.
It's like the Rodney King case. They had to use their billy clubs to take him down. But they went too far. Much too far. It happens. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I keep coming across the most appalling stories. I wonder if... |
Do you not find this coincidental? Have you considered that the press feeds on sensationalism and fails to report the mundane -- that is, the majority of what goes on in people's everyday lives, including, for example, everyday police activities?
How many wheelchair-bound women do you imagine police officers have tasered vis-a-vis non-wheelchair-bound women or any other more typical person who confronts responding officers in situations requiring police presence, for example?
Finally, if you are inclined to generalize and jump to conclusions, should you not at least confirm that you have solid, representative data? |
Well, actually it suggests to me that it is just the tip of the iceberg. Wheelchair-bound women are going to make the headlines, but what about some mouthy working-class woman with a touch of PMS? There's probably hundreds, maybe thousands, of cases where the police have used tasers recklessly and inappropriately and it's not made the headlines either because the victim would not have attracted much sympathy (not old/sick/famous enough) or that fortunately for them they managed not be killed by the taser.
And if hundreds of people are dying, (290 according to the most recent report by Amnesty international) it doesn't seem an issue that should be dismissed too easily. I was quite surprised to see that there have apparantly been little, or in fact no, independent research undertaken into the effects of tasering people.
If police were only using the taser in circumstances where they would otherwise use a gun, I wouldn't be so concerned. But it seems too many police are using the tool unnecessarily, and often excessively.
Amnesty Internation Report on Taser deaths in the US - 2006 - Taser-related deaths pass 150 mark
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The organization published a report, "USA: Amnesty International's continuing concerns about taser use", that details the organisation's research on taser use in the US and expresses serious concern over:
* the significant year-on-year increase in taser related deaths;
* the lack of any independent and rigorous study into the health effects of the electro-shock devices;
* the fact that despite these safety concerns, tasers continue to be used in the US as a routine force tool rather than as weapon of last resort;
* continued reports of excessive use of tasers, in some cases amounting to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
[url]Amnesty International said that should law enforcement agencies in the US continue to use tasers, they should only be used strictly as a substitute for lethal force.[/url]
"The mounting death toll of people shocked by tasers makes the need for a full, independent and rigorous inquiry more urgent than ever," said Susan Lee, Director of Amnesty International's Americas Programme.
More than 150 people have died in the US after being struck by tasers since June 2001 - 61 in 2005 alone - and numbers are continuing to rise. Most who died were subjected to multiple or prolonged shocks. While in most cases deaths have continued to be attributed to factors other than the taser, such as "excited delirium" associated with drug intoxication or violent struggle, in 23 cases coroners have listed the use of the taser as a cause or a contributory factor in death. |
{That was actually the 2006 report - had already pasted and highlighted when I realised I hadn't retrieved the 2007 as thought. }
Amnesty International releases its briefing on Tasers submitted to the US Justice Department (2007)
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AI said data it had gathered on more than 290 cases of individuals who died after being struck by police Tasers since 2001 suggested many of the deceased fell within potential �at-risk� categories. Fifteen of these deaths were in Canada, the rest in the USA.
While medical examiners had usually attributed cause of death to other factors, such as drug intoxication, more research was needed, AI said, into the effects of electro-shocks on people agitated and under the influence of drugs; who had heart disease; were subjected to other restraints; or who were subjected to prolonged or multiple shocks. In at least 20 autopsy reports examined by AI, coroners have cited the taser as a causal or contributory factor in the deaths, sometimes combined with other factors.
AI�s records show that most of those who died were shocked more than once and 92 were subjected to between 3 and 21 shocks. One man was shocked repeatedly while in handcuffs in cycles lasting 19, 12 and 10 seconds; another man died after being shocked for 57 continuous seconds. |
It seems that this instrument is being misused by some officers. If a few hundred of these incidents are being reported, that suggests to me that this is happening far far more often, as only the most unlucky people are actually going to die. But I would wager that thousands more come close to death, unnecessarily. And it seems clear that this problem is going to get worse, as taser use becomes more common, unless action is taken.
I would write more on this thread, but it will have to wait as I am a ravenous breastfeeding mum who is going half-crazed with hunger... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...what about some mouthy working-class woman with a touch of PMS? |
Big_Bird: that is exactly why I keep my own taser...
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| There's probably hundreds, maybe thousands, of cases where the police have used tasers recklessly and inappropriately... |
Can you support this claim? Can you also qualify "reckless and inappropriate tasering?" |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...what about some mouthy working-class woman with a touch of PMS? |
Big_Bird: that is exactly why I keep my own taser...
[?" |
You too? I thought I was the only one...  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...what about some mouthy working-class woman with a touch of PMS? |
Big_Bird: that is exactly why I keep my own taser... |
You rascal.  You're supposed to be arguing with me, not making me laugh. 
| The rascally Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| There's probably hundreds, maybe thousands, of cases where the police have used tasers recklessly and inappropriately... |
Can you support this claim? |
Well, I qualified it with 'probably' and it does seem reasonable to surmise that for every taser-related death, caused by reckless use of tasering, there are going to be other occasions when the taser was used innappropriately yet didn't cause (or quite cause) death to the victim - perhaps because they were in good physical condition or not quite so agitated etc.
| Gopher wrote: |
| Can you also qualify "reckless and inappropriate tasering?" |
Well the example of the wheelchair-bound women seems like one. First, are big strong policemen really in danger of a wheelchair-bound women? Even with a hammer in her hand she has to catch you first, right? Secondly she was tasered repeatedly over a period of 3 or 4 minutes. Surely that is excessive. Shouldn't they have just tasered her once or twice - enough to incapacitate her so they could take the weapons off her? What the hell were they doing?
The following seems to indicate "reckless and inappropriate tasering."
| Amnesty International wrote: |
| AI�s records show that most of those who died were shocked more than once and 92 were subjected to between 3 and 21 shocks. One man was shocked repeatedly while in handcuffs in cycles lasting 19, 12 and 10 seconds; another man died after being shocked for 57 continuous seconds. |
Lastly, assuming you believe (as I do) that the taser should only be used in the sort of situations that traditionally called for a firearm - i.e. when someone was in danger of serious physical harm - then there seems to be many situations where tasers have been used unnecessarily. What about a young guy running away from the police after been found tending to some marijuana plants? Did he really deserve to have his life risked by this clearly dangerous weapon. He wasn't a violent felon and no-one was in physical danger from him. He died as the result of a quite unnecessary tasering: http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/aug/03/lawsuit-lafayette-responsible-ryan-wilsons-taser-d/ |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
Morever this woman was mentally unbalanced and armed with knives and a hammer. Wheelbound chair or not she could have injured or even killed the officers had they hesitated. . Given that she was armed as well, they could not simply approach her and attempt to subdue her manually. Regardless they simply could not leave an pyschotic armed person alone.
So Big Bird what would YOU have done?
You can't talk her down...she's schizophrenic.
You can't approach her...she's got 2 knives and a hammer.
You can't just leave her alone...See the above 2 reasons.
So again BB what would YOU have done? |
What I would have done? I would have jumped out of her way. After all I am young and abled-bodied. How about you old man? Perhaps you would have shuffled slowly along on those rheumy old legs hoping she wouldn't choose you for a hammering? Then you shouldn't be a policeman out on the streets. Why haven't they retired you or given you a desk job? She has 2 knives and a hammer? For these weapons to be of any danger to you she has to a) catch you or b) get close enough to you to throw them with enough force. The police are so unfit they can not outrun a wheelchair? They can not manouvre themselves to get behind her and grab her from behind?
OK, let's assume they can't and for some reason they can not keep a watchful eye on her until more back up comes and they really have to use the taser. Then taser her just enough to momentarily incapacitate her and overpower her to take the weapons. Don't taser her again and again and again! |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The_Conservative wrote: |
Morever this woman was mentally unbalanced and armed with knives and a hammer. Wheelbound chair or not she could have injured or even killed the officers had they hesitated. . Given that she was armed as well, they could not simply approach her and attempt to subdue her manually. Regardless they simply could not leave an pyschotic armed person alone.
So Big Bird what would YOU have done?
You can't talk her down...she's schizophrenic.
You can't approach her...she's got 2 knives and a hammer.
You can't just leave her alone...See the above 2 reasons.
So again BB what would YOU have done? |
What I would have done? I would have jumped out of her way. After all I am young and abled-bodied. How about you old man? Perhaps you would have shuffled slowly along on those rheumy old legs hoping she wouldn't choose you for a hammering? Then you shouldn't be a policeman out on the streets. Why haven't they retired you or given you a desk job? She has 2 knives and a hammer? For these weapons to be of any danger to you she has to a) catch you or b) get close enough to you to throw them with enough force. The police are so unfit they can not outrun a wheelchair? They can not manouvre themselves to get behind her and grab her from behind?
Presumably they are concerned more about other citizens who may be in the area and who may not be fit enough to outrun a wheelchair. Regardless their job is to contain the situation. They didn't need backup there were two of them. Tase the psycho and take her down...HARD if need be
OK, let's assume they can't and for some reason they can not keep a watchful eye on her until more back up comes and they really have to use the taser. Then taser her just enough to momentarily incapacitate her and overpower her to take the weapons. Don't taser her again and again and again! |
Maybe they had to. Some people have a naturally high resistance to electricity. Maybe she was still holding on to her weapons. I would suggest in any event we wait to see what facts and finding come out of this case. Maybe she wasn't tased repeatedly after all. Mistakes can and do be made. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Man Wants His Video Of Vancouver Airport Taser Attack
Made Public 
VANCOUVER (CBC) - A man who videotaped the last moments of a Polish immigrant being Tasered at Vancouver International Airport said he heard a Mountie ask, "Should I Taser him?" as soon as police arrived at the scene.
Paul Pritchard said he still intends to go to court Friday to demand RCMP return his video recording of the incident - although a police spokesman said late afternoon the tape will be returned to him in a matter of days.
Robert Dziekanski, 40, died on Oct. 14, hours after he arrived at Vancouver International Airport. He was on his way to Kamloops to live with his mother in the B.C. Interior.
RCMP Cpl. Dale Carr admitted on Thursday investigators kept the video longer than they anticipated but he said the purpose was to "protect the integrity" of the police investigation 
MORE ...
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071026/taser_video_071030/20071030?hub=TopStories |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Civil liberties group want police to surrender Tasers
CanWest News Service
Published: Thursday, November 01, 2007
VANCOUVER / The B.C. Civil Liberties Association yesterday urged the
province's solicitor general to take Tasers away from police until training
on the device is increased and more checks are implemented for its use.
"Policing will not grind to a halt without the Taser. It is only one among a
wide array of intermediate force options available to police," association
president Jason Gratl said in a news release.
The call comes fewer than two weeks after Polish immigrant Robert
Dziekanski died at Vancouver International Airport after being shocked
with a Taser by police.
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=f63337ed-506e-466f-b895-e7d861395943 |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Fatal Taser tape to be released
By DHARM MAKWANA, 24 HOURS
The world will witness the last moments of Robert Dziekanski's life.
RCMP Cpl. Dale Carr said yesterday investigators and the B.C. Coroners' Service have no further use for a video showing the 40-year-old's Taser death at the hands of police at Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 13.
Paul Pritchard, who recorded the fatal incident, accused police of keeping the video longer than the agreed upon time.
"There has been no change," Carr said of plans to return the video obtained with Pritchard's consent.
"We've never said we were going to keep this any longer than we needed to keep it."
Carr added, Dziekanski's mother, Zofia Cisowski, is completely beside herself and against the tape being returned to Pritchard so that he can release footage to the media.
"I can pretty much imagine the clips that are going to be shown if it's given, and I think it's terrible," he said.
http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/2007/11/02/4624634-sun.html |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Witness disputes RCMP version of airport taser death
Lena Sin , CanWest News Service
Published: Thursday, November 01, 2007
VANCOUVER - The young man who filmed the final minutes of 40-year-
old Robert Dziekanski's life has given a disturbing account of what he
believes was a preventable Taser death.
Paul Pritchard, 25, was on his way home to Victoria when he happened to
witness an RCMP officer Taser Dziekanski to death in the arrivals section
of Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 13.
Pritchard, an English teacher in China, says he was waiting in the arrivals
lobby when he noticed Dziekanski acting strangely as he paced back and
forth. After watching for a few minutes, he decided to use his cellphone
camera to film Dziekanski.
While others in the waiting area called for security, it took some 25 to 30
minutes before security and police arrived, recalled Pritchard.
But upon their arrival, it was clear that the police had decided to use a
Taser gun before they even got near Dziekanski, said Pritchard.
"I heard 'Can I or should I Taser him?' before they even got to Mr.
Dziekanski," says Pritchard. "Right away they Tasered him."
Three police officers then struggled to handcuff Dziekanski, who by now
was on the floor. Dziekanski was unconscious about a minute later, said
Pritchard.
Police immediately called "Code Red" and medics arrived about five to
eight minutes later - a time period that Pritchard believes was too long.
Pritchard said that in the 25 minutes prior to security and RCMP officers
arriving on scene, at least five people - including women - went up to
Dziekanski to offer help.
Although he was clearly distressed and behaving strangely "none of us
felt threatened at any time. We weren't scared, women were going right
up to him," said Pritchard.
Pritchard's account is in stark contrast to that given by the RCMP, who
said Dziekanski had been behaving violently and erratically in the
international arrivals area and they were unable to calm him.
Pritchard had turned over his video footage to police on the
understanding it would be returned to him within 48 hours.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=3387c946-5142-4c18-9f4b-335a5c715534&k=91179 |
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