Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Hyeon Een]

I've met and observed a huge number of people who tone their English down for the 'natives'. But they don't turn it down in speed and they don't turn it down in their use of slang; they turn it down by merely reducing their use of articles, messing up their accent, destroying plurals and making other minor grammatical errors instead.

Thus I absorved a friend say, "For homework you write again. And on Monday you give me GOOD copy. On Monday GOOD copy! OK?"

Dropping the articles, plurals and other minor things doesn't make it easier to understand. It just makes you sound more like someone who doesn't speak English.

"Please give me three bottle of beer"; "Please give shopping bag, PLASTIC bag, shyopping bag please!"; "OK I need bigmac fry and cola. Bigmacuh setuh! DOn't you speak Englishee??"; "I want bee-za for my girlfriend to go to meegook please"; "What you job?" and so on..

If you want to tone it down for the locals then you should make your accent easy to understand or say what you need to say in Korean. Taking your fine Newfie' accent and then removing the grammar from proceeding statements will help no one. "Long may big jib draw," is no easier to understand than "Long may ye' big jib draw,".

And don't do it with your girlfriend either; she can understand you either way. She'll just "learn" that pluralization in English is as 'important' as the 들 in Korean. And she'll be wrong forever.

[bijjy]

Actually..

A research paper I wrote on language acquisition wayyyyyyy back in first year uni showed how when kids learn English, they take a grammatically perfect sentence and 'mix up' or 'dumb down' the grammar and pronouns themselves. Then, later, they 'fix' their own mistakes and revise their existing schemata as they internalize more knowledge.

For example, an adult says: Johnny, say " I want to go to the bathroom! "

Johnny: " Me go bathroom! "

A few weeks later: "Me want go bathroom!"

Then "Me want to go to the bathroom!"

And finally, "I want to go to the bathroom!"

Humans' average maximum short-term memory capacity is seven words or numbers, so I think that taking out the less important words (articles) at first, makes the more important ones (subject-verb-object) stick. Then, as they learn more, they will become aware of where to add the articles.

[bijjy]

I know when I first picked up Korean I said things like:

"Yogi! Hwa Jang Shil!"

or

"Hangook Mal Anneyo!"

Which got the point across, and helped me focus more on learning vocab. Then I went to Korean classes and picked up words like 'and,' and the formal endings, focusing more on grammar.

[Ya-ta Boy]

We seem to have two different topics here. The first one is the frequency of native speakers to continue to speak fast and use slang, while in an effort to be understood, drop articles, plurals and random grammar rules. The second one is how a student produces the new language.

I haven't run into many foreigners who do what the first poster described (I'm not around foreigners much when they speak to Koreans) but I have noticed the startling lack of ability (willingness?) to slow the speed down and drop slang/idioms. Silly people.

[The Perfect Cup of Coffee]

I'm guilty of this. I drop some articles,speak without subjects, and in choppy sentences depending on the time of day and who I'm teaching at that time.

10am-12pm [UPPER LEVEL]- "OK, so when you're researching for your essay topic and trying to support your chosen thesis..."

2pm-4pm [LOWER LEVEL]- "OK. When you write your essay...you must have a topic...then you must have a thesis...thesis is your opinion...it's what you are trying to prove...you must research...look for information about your topic and thesis...etc, etc.

4pm-6pm [BASIC LEVEL]- "OK. An essay is a report. First you need a topic. After topic (oops, no article!), you need a thesis. A thesis...

Guilty as charged.

[IncognitoHFX]

I became aware of that recently and began trying to stop.

Before: "Homework, NO!!! Opseyo!!! Home!!!"

"Wae? Homework Monday yes, please! No homework, sticker out. Three no homework, I hand phone your mummy and daddy, okay?"

Now I'm beginning to really come down on my kid's grammatical errors. Lead by example I guess.

[The_Eyeball_Kid]

[bijjy]

^ Yeah I actually agree with you, and the OP. I don't dumb down my speech unless it's absolutely necessary. But I do like being a devil's advocate!

[regicide]

[jajdude]

I'm not really sure what this thread is all about. Sometimes when teaching there is a balance between speaking proper English and being understood. Sometimes you have to sacrifice correct usage or you might as well just talk to yourself. Sometimes the article omission just happens by accident after hearing it all the time. We tend to adapt our speaking to our audience. Even speaking to other native speakers from different countries, I find I'll sometimes use language a bit differently.

[nomad-ish]

i'm afraid i'm guilty of this too, but i don't do it meaning to be condescending... i just need to be understood. i try to speak slowly and clearly, leaving out slang/idioms. i tend to use a mix of broken english and korean words mixed together outside the classroom

in class, i mostly use my broken english because a majority of my MS kids have a really hard time (there's a few kids that can't even answer 'how are you?', i've tried to teach these ones by doing some 'free' conversation at the beginning of class, but with 45 kids/class....it's damn near impossible to pinpoint/help them individually).
and since 3 of my 5 co-teachers won't translate for me, i would rather my kids understand than have examples of perfect, grammatical English.

[CentralCali]

Question for the OP: do you consider the accent portrayed in the title ("dummin' it dahwn") to be a dumb accent? If so, why?

[Qinella]

[vox]

[Mix1]

If you want to be understood, ya gotta dumb it down or change your speech patterns a bit sometimes. Native speakers do this to one another as well, depending on the context. Do you think a scientist speaks to a layperson in exactly the same terminology as he does with his peers?

Also, think about Konglish and how many other English words Koreans have absorbed. Sometimes imitating that dialect (or whatever you want to call it) is useful. I've got a lot of Korean friends with almost no English skills and my Korean is not yet up to fluent conversation level yet. So, what do we do? It's always a mix of Korean, English, Konglish, and yup...REAL BASIC English, sometimes even gramatically incorrect English more akin to pidgin or sentence fragments. We also use terminology based on the sport we share together (skateboarding).

Sorry, but whatever works for communicating with my friends, I'm going to use it.

Students,on the other hand, are a different matter.

Also, I notice sometimes that Koreans seem to modify their speech a little and dumb it down or at least simplify it for me in an effort to be understood too. I do not really fault them for it if it helps communication.