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Second-class western women
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little mixed girl

Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:05 am Post subject:

in terms of salary, there are studies that say many women don't negotiate for higher saleries like men do, and this leads to lower salaries. but really...why are so many guys negotiating for a salary i wonder? are you really worth that much? i think not, but, whatever. a boss, employer, whoever, should give a person a raise based on that person's hard work. the employee shouldn't have to go beg for a raise. if you think about it that way, and i wouldn't be surprised if many women thought that way, then a person should easily get their raise. i notice that a lot of men seem to think that women aren't as hard working, or that they are too family oriented. the amount of hours you put in doesn't equal a quality product. some guys seems to think that staying late means that they are working hard, or getting the job done. but you could do 20hrs overtime, but if your product is crap, does it really mean that you work harder than the women that doesn't work overtime? finally, it doesn't seem good to argue that because an employer thinks that a women will take off time for kids that they pay her less. that's like korean hagwons not hiring men because they are probably going to molest kids and run off to thailand...

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:

little mixed girl wrote:

but really...why are so many guys negotiating for a salary i wonder?
are you *really* worth that much? i think not, but, whatever.

Why the hell wouldn't you negotiate for a salary?

You have to fight to get what you deserve.

flip ant

Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Location: He's got high hopes!

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject:

Vicissitude wrote:

flip ant wrote:

Vicissitude wrote:

She rules the roost in her family. One could say she wears the pants in that family. NO ONE ever messes with her or they risk feeling a wrath like none other. I know her and she'll scare the crap out of any man who dares cross her. I guess you don't know Saudi women very well. Her fiesty nature is very normal in Saudi...

Their husbands don't tell them what to do. Most of these women are very high spiritied and they do whatever they please outside of dress restrictions.

This sounds exactly like my grandmother. She died 10 years ago....at the age of 93. Fiesty women don't necessarily mean liberated women. Ask your dear friend to drive you to the mall...her, not her driver.

Why? That's what they have drivers for. Rolling Eyes

When my Arab friends in the Middle East go with me anywhere, they send their drivers to pick me up. They generally don't drive and seeing how so many of the Saudi men drive it's best they all just stay off the roads. They are complete maniacs out there on those roads driving at crazy speeds and getting into all kinds of bad accidents. I wouldn't want to drive out there on those roads... leave it to the drivers who are better at dealing with the traffic.

Uhhhhh....she couldn't even if she wanted. Perhaps you have heard...women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi. So, you are ok with women being prohibited to drive because the males in Saudi drive like crap? Interesting...

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Perhaps you have heard...women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi. So, you are ok with women being prohibited to drive because the males in Saudi drive like crap? Interesting...

One thing I have noticed about apologists for authoritarian forms of Islam is that many of the arguments they make, while sounding somewhat credible on their own, would be considered downright offensive if applied to western practices. If the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution against women driving, I don't think we'd be hearing too many culturally-sensitive liberals arguing that it's no big deal since Baptists all ride around in limos anyway plus Baptist men are such bad drivers.

The distinction between being feisty and being liberated is also duly noted. If being a headstrong, outspoken woman was all there was to liberation, there would have been no need for a feminist movement to begin with.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps you have heard...women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi. So, you are ok with women being prohibited to drive because the males in Saudi drive like crap? Interesting...

The distinction between being feisty and being liberated is also duly noted. If being a headstrong, outspoken woman was all there was to liberation, there would have been no need for a feminist movement to begin with.

Western women could learn a thing or two from fiesty Saudi women. They aren't interested in being NICE and liked by everyone. This is the disease of western women, being insecure and judging ones worth on the basis of how much she is liked, beautiful etc. In many ways Saudi women are very secure, strong women with a backbone and right to speak up for herself. They aren't considered to be b/witches for being fiesty, loudmouths who demand to have their way. I find this society in many many ways to be both liberating and REAL. The facad of western women is a joke.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:

flip ant wrote:

Three things:
I think the world would be a little safer if there weren't any Saudis driving on the roads.

Now the entire Middle East is well aware of the wreckless driving habits of Saudi males. So, do I want inexperienced Saudi females on the same roads just compounding the problems? No!

You have to understand that Saudi women wear veils and it's very easy for one of them to take a driving test disguised as another woman. This happens already in many Arab nation states. So you see women with a diver's license but no experience behind the wheel. Everyone is complaining about this.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

little mixed girl wrote:

but really...why are so many guys negotiating for a salary i wonder?
are you *really* worth that much? i think not, but, whatever.

Why the hell wouldn't you negotiate for a salary?

You have to fight to get what you deserve.

I just saw a video clip about this. Studies have found that western women are too afraid that if they ask for a higher salary, they will be seen as unlikeable and thus lose out on the opportunities or even become fired because they weren't NICE enough. So that's why. It's VERY important that western women are NICE! Rolling Eyes

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject:

Vicissitude wrote:

flip ant wrote:

so you are saying you are an apologist to the extreme then?

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:45 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Vicissitude wrote:

flip ant wrote:

so you are saying you are an apologist to the extreme then?

Inchala

http://www.jannah.org/sisters/distort.html

Quote:

Distorted Image of Muslim Women
by a former non-muslim, Sister Naasira bint Ellison
_________________________________________________________________

Since the height of the feminist movement in the late 70's there has been a magnifying glass placed over the status of muslim women. Unfortunately, the magnifying glass that has been used is an unusual one. Unusual in the sense that it is very selective about which items it will magnify; other items it will distort to such a degree that they will no longer look familiar. I remember once reading in an "in depth" article about the lives of muslim women. This article "explained" that at any time a man can divorce his wife by simply stating "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you". This article can lead anyone ignorant of the Islamic ruling regarding divorce to believe that in less than five seconds the woman is left with no husband and is left to care for herself (and possibly children) by any means necessary. The question that immediately popped up in my mind was, "Did the author innocently write that out of sincere ignorance or was it another of the many attempts to degrade the religion of Islam and its followers (muslims)?" It may be my own paranoia, but I tend to believe it was the latter of the two.

The truth of the matter is that Islam has the most humane and most just system of divorce that exists. Firstly, many options are taken and tried before coming to the decision of the divorce. If the man and woman decide that they can no longer live together successfully as a husband and wife, the husband (in most cases, not always) pronounces the divorce by saying "I divorce you". At this point the waiting period begins. The waiting period lasts for three menstrual cycles to assure the woman is not pregnant. This period allows the couple time to think about what they are doing and if this is what they really want to do. There are no lawyers involved to antagonize an already delicate situation.

In the case that it is realized, that the woman is pregnant, the waiting period lasts the entire time she is pregnant. During the waiting period (whether the woman is pregnant or not) the man is obligated to provide food, clothing and shelter to the woman as he did before the divorce pronouncement. If the couple carries the divorce through to the birth of the child and the woman suckles the baby, the man is obligated to feed and clothe both his ex-wife for the time the woman suckles (the maximum being two years). After this weaning, the child will be provided for by the father until he/she is no longer in need of support.

It is quite ironic that in such an "advanced society" as America, there are divorce cases in which women are being forced to pay alimony to their ex-husbands. Can this and many other things we know about the American system of divorce compare to the Islamic system of divorce?

I have also read stories wherein it is stated that women are forced to marry men without their consent. This in no way resembles the marriage system in Islam. In Islam the woman marries the man of her choice. She may even marry someone that her mother and/or father objects to. The point is that it is the woman who makes the final decision as to whom she will marry. Once the man and the woman decide that they are interested in one another for marriage, a dowry is decided upon. A dowry is not a brides price but, it is a gift from the groom to the bride. They agree upon a gift that is affordable by the groom. In the time of the Prophet (sas), often things such as livestock and money were given. This is a wise decision in the event that a woman becomes divorced or widowed, she has some financial security to fall back on even if it is for a limited amount of time. Once the man and woman are married, the man is required to clothe, feed, shelter and educate her (or allow her to be educated) in the same manner as he does himself.

The last distorted image that I will cover is that of the muslim women's dress. The western influenced media portrays our dress to be outdated and oppressive. Needless to say however, I differ with these adjectives. Our dress code does not hinder us from doing anything productive in our lives. Muslim women maintain a variety of jobs, non of which are devalued nor hampered due to their dress code. And as for the timing of muslims women's dress during these contemporary times, it seems most appropriate due to decreasing morals in the world today.

For those who say that Islamic dress is outdated, they speak from great ignorance. The decreasing molarity and trials of this time makes Hijaab even more in need. More than ever before sex crimes are rampant. Although this society tells women they can wear what they want to wear, anytime a rape occurs the woman is the one put on trial an one of the first questions is, "What were you wearing?" This concept seems as though it is a set up directed against the so called contemporary woman. Also there is a direct correlation between the respect a man has for a woman and the amount of her body her body she displays flauntigly.

In conclusion, I hope this article helped to clear up some distorted/misunderstood aspects of Islam and women. Women in Islam are respected and held in high regard. We will never find success and/or solutions to our problems until we realize that Allah knows best and that this disbelieving society will ruin itself.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:15 am Post subject:

Thanks for the confirmation. Inchala? what does that mean?

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:16 am Post subject:

Quote:

The decreasing molarity and trials of this time makes Hijaab even more in need. More than ever before sex crimes are rampant. Although this society tells women they can wear what they want to wear, anytime a rape occurs the woman is the one put on trial an one of the first questions is, "What were you wearing?" This concept seems as though it is a set up directed against the so called contemporary woman.

The writer's argument is equivalent to saying that Jim Crow laws were justified to protect blacks, since blacks who went into white areas often got attacked by whites.

Quote:

It is quite ironic that in such an "advanced society" as America, there are divorce cases in which women are being forced to pay alimony to their ex-husbands.

Well, wouldn't that only happen in cases where the woman earned more money than the man during the course of the marriage? And if so, isn't that just basic fairness?

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Thanks for the confirmation.

Inchala? what does that mean?

You say you were immersed in Arabic culture and you don't even know what 'inchala' means? Laughing

That's very telling.

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:17 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

It is quite ironic that in such an "advanced society" as America, there are divorce cases in which women are being forced to pay alimony to their ex-husbands.

Well, wouldn't that only happen in cases where the woman earned more money than the man during the course of the marriage? And if so, isn't that just basic fairness?

Glad you asked. Fair is not 'fairness.'

Quote:

The picture of equality looks awfully strange to Kim Shamsky. The 47-year-old business owner pays her ex, a 65-year-old retired Major League Baseball player, thousands per month in temporary spousal support.

He's not seeking alimony to help pay for the kids' birthday parties, since they don't have children. Nor was he instrumental in building her business. They married seven years after she started a handful of staffing firms and amassed a small fortune on her own. The daughter of a New York City taxi driver, Shamsky started her first staffing agency at age 27 with the help of a 21% loan. Not only was she able to make her first business profitable, but she's also worked furiously to ensure the success of all five businesses she's started since. Small wonder she is outraged at having to pay thousands of dollars a month to her ex.

"He used to scream and throw tantrums and demand more money," Shamsky says of her ex-husband. "It was like he thought, 'Hey, you have money, why shouldn't I?'" She adds flatly: "I will never marry again. And I'm getting T-shirts made with the word 'prenup' written across the chest."

No doubt Shamsky would find more than a few buyers for the shirts. The idea that men can receive spousal support from their wives may feel like a freakish concept, but as women have become higher earners, it's increasingly common.
...
Kim Shamsky admits she's angry about paying her ex-husband spousal support mostly because he's a man. After all, men are supposed to be breadwinners, not bread takers.

"A real man just wouldn't do this sort of thing," she says. "Maybe it's my Italian upbringing, but I don't think it's right."

Right or not, as women's earnings grow, so will their financial responsibility during divorce. That's equality for you.

http://www.forbes.com/leadership/2007/03/13/women-paying-alimony-lead_cx_pink_0313alimony.html

Vicissitude

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:28 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

The writer's argument is equivalent to saying that Jim Crow laws were justified to protect blacks, since blacks who went into white areas often got attacked by whites.

It's not equivalent because you'll find the vast majority of Muslim Arab women prefer their dress covering not only because of their religion but also out of personal choice. In contrast, Black people had laws placed on them that they were NOT in agreement with as evidence in the civil rights movement. So it's not a good comparison; that is the dress of Muslim women and that of Jim Crow Laws.

Quote:

MY BODY IS MY OWN BUSINESS
By Naheed Mustafa
MULTICULTURAL VOICES: A Canadian-born Muslim woman has taken to wearing the traditional hijab scarf. It tends to make people see her as either a terrorist or a symbol of oppressed womanhood, but she finds the experience LIBERATING.

_________________________________________________________________

The Globe and Mail Tuesday, June 29, 1993 Facts and Arguments Page (A26)

_________________________________________________________________

HEADLINE: MY BODY IS MY OWN BUSINESS By Naheed Mustafa

I OFTEN wonder whether people see me as a radical, fundamentalist Muslim terrorist packing an AK-47 assault rifle inside my jean jacket. Or may be they see me as the poster girl for oppressed womanhood everywhere. I'm not sure which it is.

I get the whole gamut of strange looks, stares, and covert glances. You see, I wear the hijab, a scarf that covers my head, neck, and throat. I do this because I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern.

Young Muslim women are reclaiming the hijab, reinterpreting it in light of its original purpose to give back to women ultimate control of their own bodies.

The Qur'an teaches us that men and women are equal, that individuals should not be judged according to gender, beauty, wealth, or privilege. The only thing that makes one person better than another is her or his character.

Nonetheless, people have a difficult time relating to me. After all, I'm young, Canadian born and raised, university educated why would I do this to myself, they ask.

Strangers speak to me in loud, slow English and often appear to be playing charades. They politely inquire how I like living in Canada and whether or not the cold bothers me. If I'm in the right mood, it can be very amusing.

But, why would I, a woman with all the advantages of a North American upbringing, suddenly, at 21, want to cover myself so that with the hijab and the other clothes I choose to wear, only my face and hands show?

Because it gives me freedom.

WOMEN are taught from early childhood that their worth is proportional to their attractiveness. We feel compelled to pursue abstract notions of beauty, half realizing that such a pursuit is futile.

When women reject this form of oppression, they face ridicule and contempt. Whether it's women who refuse to wear makeup or to shave their legs, or to expose their bodies, society, both men and women, have trouble dealing with them.

In the Western world, the hijab has come to symbolize either forced silence or radical, unconscionable militancy. Actually, it's neither. It is simply a woman's assertion that judgment of her physical person is to play no role whatsoever in social interaction.

Wearing the hijab has given me freedom from constant attention to my physical self. Because my appearance is not subjected to public scrutiny, my beauty, or perhaps lack of it, has been removed from the realm of what can legitimately be discussed.

No one knows whether my hair looks as if I just stepped out of a salon, whether or not I can pinch an inch, or even if I have unsightly stretch marks. And because no one knows, no one cares.

Feeling that one has to meet the impossible male standards of beauty is tiring and often humiliating. I should know, I spent my entire teenage years trying to do it. It was a borderline bulimic and spent a lot of money I didn't have on potions and lotions in hopes of becoming the next Cindy Crawford.

The definition of beauty is ever-changing; waifish is good, waifish is bad, athletic is good -- sorry, athletic is bad. Narrow hips? Great. Narrow hips? Too bad.

Women are not going to achieve equality with the right to bear their breasts in public, as some people would like to have you believe. That would only make us party to our own objectification. True equality will be had only when women don't need to display themselves to get attention and won't need to defend their decision to keep their bodies to themselves.

Good read here: http://www.islam101.com/women/equity.html

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:37 am Post subject:

Vicissitude wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

Thanks for the confirmation.

Inchala? what does that mean?

You say you were immersed in Arabic culture and you don't even know what 'inchala' means? Laughing

That's very telling.

He knows very well what it means. He might making a point about how obvious it is? Or making fun of your choice of spelling? He's playing about at any rate.

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