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atomic42
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Location: Gimhae
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 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Zharkov wrote: |
| Yep, just like the devil planned all along...get people to think that this is the way "Christians" think and act. |
Um yeah, kinda like that.  |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Did you see the Phelps on 20/20 last night-they are really full of hate |
those guys are so effed up |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Christians have a test. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. If you see bad fruit, you know it's not a good tree. I see a lot of bad fruit coming out of the Christian churches. But a good tree can't do this, according to the test. Yeah, sorry you and I are just applying their test. |
I see a LOT of churches producing GREAT fruit. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Christians have a test. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. If you see bad fruit, you know it's not a good tree. I see a lot of bad fruit coming out of the Christian churches. But a good tree can't do this, according to the test. Yeah, sorry you and I are just applying their test. |
I see a LOT of churches producing GREAT fruit. |
Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit.
"You will know them by their fruits. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Matthew 7:16-18 |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Christians have a test. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. If you see bad fruit, you know it's not a good tree. I see a lot of bad fruit coming out of the Christian churches. But a good tree can't do this, according to the test. Yeah, sorry you and I are just applying their test. |
I see a LOT of churches producing GREAT fruit. |
I see a lot of churches producing plenty of fruits and loons. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Christians have a test. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. If you see bad fruit, you know it's not a good tree. I see a lot of bad fruit coming out of the Christian churches. But a good tree can't do this, according to the test. Yeah, sorry you and I are just applying their test. |
I see a LOT of churches producing GREAT fruit. |
Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit.
"You will know them by their fruits. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Matthew 7:16-18 |
If we're going strictly by Bible quotes though this one suggests that the majority (and I guess that would be "just say Jesus is Lord and you're done" Protestantism) is wrong:
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matthew 7:13
Sounds like Mark Twain:
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect)." |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit. |
That's true. You could also argue that since churches (the buildings and organizations) are constructs of social man there is no WAY they can produce exclusively good fruit. Sure they can do their best but that's where it ends.
In any case, since some churches do "produce bad fruit" (some, not all), all that can be said is that they are neither good nor bad "fruit"/churches.
| Quote: |
| I see a lot of churches producing plenty of fruits and loons. |
That's true. It's too bad that media encourages/eats up extremists cause I don't think that helps. |
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kittyfye
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Location: South of Seoul..way south
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Christians have a test. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. If you see bad fruit, you know it's not a good tree. I see a lot of bad fruit coming out of the Christian churches. But a good tree can't do this, according to the test. Yeah, sorry you and I are just applying their test. |
I see a LOT of churches producing GREAT fruit. |
Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit.
"You will know them by their fruits. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Matthew 7:16-18 |
Uncanny how critics of believers use fundamenatlist interpretations to their own ends. Aren't the fundamentalists the ones rubbin' you boys raw in the first place?
"rubbin' raw..." Yeah. You can have fun with that one; it's a freebie. |
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kittyfye
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Location: South of Seoul..way south
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit. |
That's true. You could also argue that since churches (the buildings and organizations) are constructs of social man there is no WAY they can produce exclusively good fruit. Sure they can do their best but that's where it ends.
In any case, since some churches do "produce bad fruit" (some, not all), all that can be said is that they are neither good nor bad "fruit"/churches.
| Quote: |
| I see a lot of churches producing plenty of fruits and loons. |
That's true. It's too bad that media encourages/eats up extremists cause I don't think that helps. |
kyber, where did you get your education? You actually appear to have a command of logic. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| kittyfye wrote: |
Uncanny how critics of believers use fundamenatlist interpretations to their own ends. Aren't the fundamentalists the ones rubbin' you boys raw in the first place?
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I'm exposing a logical flaw. In this case it's the flaw of inconsistency. Christians use the fruit test for that which they don't like but don't apply it to themselves to see they also produce bad fruit. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit. |
That's true. You could also argue that since churches (the buildings and organizations) are constructs of social man there is no WAY they can produce exclusively good fruit. Sure they can do their best but that's where it ends. |
I could argue that. A reasonable person could argue that, but Christian fundamentalists wouldn't. The bible is simply not open to your liberal interpretation. Sorry, friend, god said a good tree can't produce bad fruit. The church of christ has produced a lot of bad fruit. Ergo, it's a bad tree. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I could argue that. A reasonable person could argue that, but Christian fundamentalists wouldn't. The bible is simply not open to your liberal interpretation. |
I'd agree with the former and am fairly skeptical of the latter.
| Quote: |
Sorry, friend, god said a good tree can't produce bad fruit. The church of christ has produced a lot of bad fruit. Ergo, it's a bad tree.
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One thing that I feel obliged to say: The verse you quote is referring to false prophets; individuals. I'm not completely convinced that the metaphor is as apt when talking about churches. |
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Hank the Iconoclast
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't really consider the Westboro Baptist Church to be Christian. They are just fanatical psychos. They are more of a cult. |
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kittyfye
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Location: South of Seoul..way south
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, mindmetoo is illustrating a problem with modern scriptural exegesis amongst believers and non alike: the non-literary interpretation. not to pick on him, but he is reading the verse as if it were printed up in a handbook. Kyber, your suggestion that the verse be taken in context is along these proper, literary, lines. Now, whether you believe in scripture or not makes little difference; if we intend to understand scripture, to believe in it or to find its flaws, we must also understand the culture from which it came, which was intensely literary.
The Bible is indeed an enormous work of literature, one that, until the early modern, was approached as something which cannot be understood without contemplation and meditation (both). Every reader is called to read and re-read and to weigh the content of what has been read with simultinaeity. This becomes like a relationship with a human being, which can--and should--be a life's work.
Those critics who do not understand this are little better than believers who don't understand this. They are like critics of Korean culture whom we all have to endure, who have absolutely no understanding of Confucian social mores. In other words, there may very well be room for criticism, but their particular criticism is simply unlearned. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yep. But by the test, they should not produce a lot of good fruit and a little bad fruit. They should produce no bad fruit. |
That's true. You could also argue that since churches (the buildings and organizations) are constructs of social man there is no WAY they can produce exclusively good fruit. Sure they can do their best but that's where it ends. |
I could argue that. A reasonable person could argue that, but Christian fundamentalists wouldn't. The bible is simply not open to your liberal interpretation. Sorry, friend, god said a good tree can't produce bad fruit. The church of christ has produced a lot of bad fruit. Ergo, it's a bad tree. |
So what's this so-called 'Church of Christ'? Surely you're not looking at all the churches of the world as a whole when they don't do so themselves? Do you consider this:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/amish.shooting/index.html
to be similar to this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
Plus, the quote you're talking about is about recognizing individual charlatans, not a measuring stick for looking at large groups and telling whether they're good or bad. It can be done, but it's more to do with averages than the single events you've been posting on the other thread (IOW, data is not the plural of anecdote). With Westboro it's pretty obvious that they're an evil group, with Amish it's quite obvious that it's the opposite, and with a lot of the churches in between there's a mix of good and bad, which is why people often set out to form new churches if they find theirs to be either too dry and out of touch, or just evil.
Here's the quote in full:
| Quote: |
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
It is possible to generalize to a certain extent though about somewhat larger groups than single churches - American Protestantism for example, and the Catholic Church as a whole since it's pretty unified. There's no reason to pretend that there's a single unified church in the world that you can ascertain the goodness of though, since that would mean lumping in Coptics with Eastern Orthodox with Baptists with Protestants with Catholics and everything else.
And they don't even all use the same books, nor do they all believe in sola scriptura. That's key, since that's the assumption you're making when pulling up biblical quotes. Without sola scriptura to play around with you're forced to look at the church itself, and not just quotes from the Bible. (that's one reason why sola scriptura's not a good idea. Without it you actually do pay more attention to what a church does, not what it says it likes)
So, in the spirit of argument let's say you're pulled into a dark alley one night by a guy who has a gun to your head, and he's given you three options:
1) Telling him to become Amish, whereupon he'll live that way for the rest of his life
2) Telling him to join Westboro Baptist, whereupon he'll live that way for the rest of his life
3) Not telling him either (or telling him anything else besides "become Amish" or "join Westboro") and getting your brains blown out then and there
(yes, he's that conflicted)
I'm not even going to wait for the answer - it's one. You told him to become Amish, and you're now happily alive and chilling at Starbucks again. Why did you say that though, if they are all pretty much the same thing in the end (part of one monolithic body that is capable of producing bad fruit)? |
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