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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Why Science and Islam don't mix |
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The following critique of Islam is theological, not personal.
Hirsi Ali, atheism, and Islam
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Allah is no more subject to laws of nature than the nature-spirits of the pagan world who infest every tree, rock and stream, and make magic according to their own whimsy. The "carried-forward idea of the unity of God" to which Rosenzweig refers, of course, is the monotheism carried forward in outward form from Judaism, but dashed to pieces against the competing notion of absolute transcendence.
As Rosenzweig observes, "An atheist can say, 'There is no God but God'." If God is everywhere and in all things, he is nowhere and in nothing. If there are no natural laws, there need be no law-giver, and the world is an arbitrary and desolate place, a Hobbesian war of each aspect of nature against all. Contemplation of nature in Islam is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. It is not surprising that Islamic science died out a generation or two after al-Ghazali. |
The argument: Islamic theology, as accepted today, is by its nature hostile to personal freedom and scientific inquiry. A completely transcendent Allah can have use for neither. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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What's interesting is that Baghdad used to be the city with the world's premier universities. Indeed, Islam's early days brought us scientific process and thought. Pity the same culture that brought us algebra has fallen so far.
Early Muslims were curious to see how the world, and the entire Universe, works. I wonder what has happened, since nowadays they think that Mars will start doing figure eights around the sun only because Allah wills it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
What's interesting is that Baghdad used to be the city with the world's premier universities. Indeed, Islam's early days brought us scientific process and thought. Pity the same culture that brought us algebra has fallen so far.
Early Muslims were curious to see how the world, and the entire Universe, works. I wonder what has happened, since nowadays they think that Mars will start doing figure eights around the sun only because Allah wills it. |
My (limited) understanding on the matter is that Islamic theology was up for debate during that period.
Just to illustrate how non-expert I am on the subject, I'm going to delve into wiki on Islam.
It appears at first glance this Al-Ghazali would be the first culprit in steering Islam towards what is called occasionalism.
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| Occasionalism is a philosophical theory about causation which says that created substances cannot be efficient causes of events. Instead, all events are taken to be caused directly by God Himself. (A related theory, which has been called 'occasional causation', also denies a link of efficient causation between mundane events, but may differ as to the identity of the true cause that replaces them).[1] The theory states that the illusion of efficient causation between mundane events arises out of a constant conjunction that God had instituted, such that every instance where the cause is present will constitute an 'occasion' for the effect to occur as an expression of the aforementioned power. This 'occasioning' relation, however, fell short of efficient causation. It was not that the first event caused God to cause the second event: rather, God first caused one and then caused the other, but He chose to regulate such behaviour in accordance with general laws of nature. |
The ramifications of this relationship of God to man is radical. For Allah, what would love of man mean?
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| The ninth century theologian Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari defended the notion of an utterly omnipotent God who could will absolutely anything (even that a perfectly good man could be sent to hell), and that nothing can endure for more than one instant without being recreated by God. |
Of course, certainly in the Old Testament, the biblical story of Job approaches this sort of occasionalism. As you may remember, Job is the holiest of men, whom God allows to be stricken and cursed by Satan (but not killed) on a wager. Eventually, after Job's friends tell Job to repent, God himself speaks to Job.
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YHVH describes, in evocative and lyrical language, what the experience of being responsible for the world is like, and asks if Job has ever had the experiences that YHVH has had.
YHVH's answer underscores that Job shares the world with numerous powerful and remarkable creatures, creatures with lives and needs of their own, whom God must provide for, and the young of some hunger in a way that can only be satisfied by taking the lives of others. Does Job even have any experience of the world he lives in? Does he understand what it means to be responsible for such a world? Job admits that he does not.
YHVH's speech also emphasizes his sovereignty in creating and maintaining the world. The thrust is not merely that God has experiences that Job does not, but also that God is King over the world and is not necessarily subject to questions from his creatures, including men. He declines to answer any of Job's questions or challenges with anything except "I am the Lord." |
So, we see that al-Ghazali is hardly completely responsible for Islam's occasionalism. And there are hints in the wiki entry that his works have been subject to various interpretations. One is reminded of the contortions of Aristotlian philosophy by Thomas Aquinas (one of al-Ghazali's near contemporaries).
Nevertheless, Islamic theology as it stands today still recognizes the truth of occasionalist philosophy. Spengler seems to suggest that occasionalism could Islam's last and greatest stumbling block. Should Islam be able to get past it, it would join kaffir philosophy in recognizing the role of reason in faith. But could a rationalized Islamic theology also recognize God's love? And what would a loving Allah look like?
Hoping for an Islamic reformation/renaissance is high optimism, to say the least. Such a reformation/renaissance would have much more to overcome than the same movements did in Christianity over 500 years ago. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
What's interesting is that Baghdad used to be the city with the world's premier universities. Indeed, Islam's early days brought us scientific process and thought. Pity the same culture that brought us algebra has fallen so far.
Early Muslims were curious to see how the world, and the entire Universe, works. I wonder what has happened, since nowadays they think that Mars will start doing figure eights around the sun only because Allah wills it. |
When the muslims conquered territory they claimed the ideas and knowledge of the civilization they had just destroyed as their own. Saying that muslims/islam contributed meaningfully to the world's body of knowledge is like me running into a library, killing or converting everybody to the church of Peel and then claiming I/we wrote all the books. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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thepeel write:
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| Saying that muslims/islam contributed meaningfully to the world's body of knowledge is like me running into a library, killing or converting everybody to the church of Peel and then claiming I/we wrote all the books. |
are you saying ALL contributions by muslims have at one time or another just been stolen from someone else?
certainly not, right?
so why post such a bold statement? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I used the word 'meaningfully'. The overall contributions to science, medicine etc etc has been insignificant compared to the West and NE Asia. Also, much of what they claim as theirs only became theirs when they destroyed the culture of original origin. To this day, they only survive beyond iron-age technology because they borrow from (or more properly, buy from) other more successful civilizations. Take away the oil in the Arab world, or the ethnic Chinese and oil in SE Asia and they are right back at square one. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
What's interesting is that Baghdad used to be the city with the world's premier universities. Indeed, Islam's early days brought us scientific process and thought. Pity the same culture that brought us algebra has fallen so far.
Early Muslims were curious to see how the world, and the entire Universe, works. I wonder what has happened, since nowadays they think that Mars will start doing figure eights around the sun only because Allah wills it. |
When the muslims conquered territory they claimed the ideas and knowledge of the civilization they had just destroyed as their own. Saying that muslims/islam contributed meaningfully to the world's body of knowledge is like me running into a library, killing or converting everybody to the church of Peel and then claiming I/we wrote all the books. |
Aren't you skipping a few years?
Yes, the conquests were just that, conquests. But afterwards, Islam were heirs to the throne of vanguard civilization as the Byzantine Empire crumbled. Even accepting the traditional historical version (there is a more modern line that suggests that both the Byzantine and Parthian Empires mostly were in collapse, like the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th Century, and Muhammed's troops came in), eventually Islamic civilization (so to speak) forged trade routes from Hangzhou to the African Horn. In the meantime, Avicenna and al-Farabi promoted the sciences, and gathered the wisdom of the Greeks, Persians, Cappadocians, Indian Vedas, etc.
The already precarious balance of Islamic belief combined with jurisprudence overtook such free thought after occasionalism took root. By the time of the Crusades, the Assassins, and the Mongols, occasionalism had festered so much that Islamic civilization was rotted from the inside out.
But, my understanding is there was a genuine flourishing during a genuine Golden Age. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| So, you agree that they basically aggregated the ideas of formerly non-muslim lands but add that they also added ideas of still non-muslim lands? |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| I used the word 'meaningfully'. The overall contributions to science, medicine etc etc has been insignificant compared to the West and NE Asia. Also, much of what they claim as theirs only became theirs when they destroyed the culture of original origin. To this day, they only survive beyond iron-age technology because they borrow from (or more properly, buy from) other more successful civilizations. Take away the oil in the Arab world, or the ethnic Chinese and oil in SE Asia and they are right back at square one. |
i am too ignorant on the subject so i'll have to take your word for it.
but you are basically suggesting that no muslim has ever made an original and meaningful contribution to the wealth of knowledge man-kind has? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| but you are basically suggesting that no muslim has ever made an original and meaningful contribution to the wealth of knowledge man-kind has? |
No. Of course there have been individuals who have made contributions, in spite of their faith. My point is that, on the whole, islam has brought little more than violence, slavery, suffering and ignorance to the world. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Wow, peely, are you jinju's sock? At the time the Islamic world was making huge strides scientifically Europeans were living in mud dying of the pox. You're clearly an excellent troll since I bother to respond, though I'll keep it short.
It's accepted by the vast majority of historians and sociologists that Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for much longer had it not been for the scientific contributions of the Muslim world.
Arabic physicians were the link between Hypocrates and the Greeks and Europeans in terms of medical progress. Italy, or the nation states that would eventually be banded together to make Italy, made early significant contributions to medical science as a direct result from their exposure to the Arabic/Muslim world.
Algebra come from al-jabr, an Arabic word. Why? Because Arabic mathematicians devised the system. No algebra, no physics or any other higher order mathematics.
C'mon. Don't be racist. It's exactly what all fundamentalists do, "We're right, you're wrong."
And for the record peel, all societies build on the ashes of previous ones. No Babylon, no Greece. No Greece, no Rome. No Rome, no England. And so on. Take a history class or read a book. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| It's accepted by the vast majority of historians and sociologists that Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for much longer had it not been for the scientific contributions of the Muslim world. |
These were the darkest days of the West and doing better than the West at this time hardly is an accomplishment. In addition, this time was so short lived that it is hardly worth a mention.
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| Arabic physicians were the link between Hypocrates and the Greeks and Europeans in terms of medical progress. |
So, they brought together cultures they assimilated in their expansion? This would seem to be a very obvious outcome of taking over massive amounts of land. This is also consistent with my position.
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Italy, or the nation states that would eventually be banded together to make Italy, made early significant contributions to medical science as a direct result from their exposure to the Arabic/Muslim world.
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Or, they translated pre-islamic books. Be sure.
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Algebra come from al-jabr, an Arabic word. Why? Because Arabic mathematicians devised the system. No algebra, no physics or any other higher order mathematics. |
muslim propaganda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus#The_father_of_algebra.3F
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C'mon. Don't be racist. It's exactly what all fundamentalists do, "We're right, you're wrong." |
islam isn't a race you douchbag. I'm being honest.[quote]
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And for the record peel, all societies build on the ashes of previous ones. No Babylon, no Greece. No Greece, no Rome. No Rome, no England. And so on. Take a history class or read a book. |
They build upon it? What did islam add that was a "meaningful contribution"? They appropriated the cultures that they conquered and they conquered VAST numbers of cultures and huge chunks of land. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: |
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You need to understand that in parroting the islamic lies about their inventing "zero" or certain kinds of math, you are aiding in the continued cultural rewriting or cleansing that has been taking place for more than a thousand years. This is propaganda. In fact, most of the "muslims" that made scientific discoveries were dhimmni Assyrians. Around 90%. They were not muslims, but a kind of serf in muslim lands.
Don't just repeat lies because they make you feel all warm and multicultural.
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Dear Madame Fiorina:
It is with great interest that I read your speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled "Technology, Business and Our way of Life: What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.
I know you are a very busy woman, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else. I will answer some of the specific points you made in your speech, then conclude with a brief perspective on this Arabist/Islamist ideology.
Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this -- primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).
Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.
You state, "its architects designed buildings that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are referring to, but if you are referring to domes and arches, the fundamental architectural breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead of a spherical shape for these structures was made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological record.
You state, "its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption." The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian Mathematics, Neugebauer).
You state, "its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease." The overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%) were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Assyrians began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European Renaissance.
By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.
In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces (a theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum vacuum).
One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world, the School of Nisibis, which had three departments, theology, philosophy and medicine, and which became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based (see The Statutes of the School of Nisibis, by Arthur Voobus).
When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.
You state, "Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration." This is a bit melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia were known as astronomers and astrologers, and who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized -- so rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared completely.
You state, "its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things." There is very little literature in the Arabic language that comes from this period you are referring to (the Koran is the only significant piece of literature), whereas the literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was vast. The third largest corpus of Christian writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called Syriac; see here.)
You state, "when other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others." This is a very important issue you raise, and it goes to the heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic civilization represents. I reviewed a book titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in which the author lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1 was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of my review: "The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise which they had established. One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O'Leary's book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer." I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to an end (about 850 A.D.).
Islam the religion itself was significantly molded by Assyrians and Jews (see Nestorian Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of the Islamic World).
Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?
You state, "and perhaps we can learn a lesson from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions." In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian boys were forcefully taken from their families, usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where they were Islamized and made to fight for the Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we point to? We can, on the other hand, point to the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is the true face of Islam.
Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomeini). This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the "foreign" culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab "accomplishments" you cited in your speech. For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab' is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" -- Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by H. W. F. Saggs).
Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.
There are minorities and nations struggling for survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics, Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their attempts to wipe out all other cultures, religions and civilizations. It is incumbent upon each one of us to do our homework and research when making statements and speeches about these sensitive matters.
I hope you found this information enlightening. For more information, refer to the web links below. You may contact me at [email protected] for further questions. |
http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="thepeel"]
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| It's accepted by the vast majority of historians and sociologists that Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for much longer had it not been for the scientific contributions of the Muslim world. |
These were the darkest days of the West and doing better than the West at this time hardly is an accomplishment. In addition, this time was so short lived that it is hardly worth a mention.
The Arabic/Muslim golden age was from about 700-1400 AD. The "Dark Ages" were from about 500-1000AD. That's not a long time?
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| Arabic physicians were the link between Hypocrates and the Greeks and Europeans in terms of medical progress. |
So, they brought together cultures they assimilated in their expansion? This would seem to be a very obvious outcome of taking over massive amounts of land. This is also consistent with my position.
The Muslim caliphates of this time period weren't that large in historical empire terms. Also, every culture does that. Like Europe adopting and building on Muslim scientific advancements.
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Italy, or the nation states that would eventually be banded together to make Italy, made early significant contributions to medical science as a direct result from their exposure to the Arabic/Muslim world.
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Or, they translated pre-islamic books. Be sure.
They did do that. Greek, Roman, Persian. ALL CULTURES DO THIS.
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Algebra come from al-jabr, an Arabic word. Why? Because Arabic mathematicians devised the system. No algebra, no physics or any other higher order mathematics. |
muslim propaganda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus#The_father_of_algebra.3F
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Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī was a Persian[1] Islamic mathematician, astronomer, astrologer and geographer. He was born around 780 in Khwārizm[2] (now Khiva, Uzbekistan) and died around 850. He worked most of his life as a scholar in the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.
His Algebra was the first book on the systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations. Consequently he is considered to be the father of algebra,[3] a title he shares with Diophantus. Latin translations of his Arithmetic, on the Indian numerals, introduced the decimal positional number system to the Western world in the 12th century.[4] He revised and updated Ptolemy's Geography as well as writing several works on astronomy and astrology.
His contributions not only made a great impact on mathematics, but on language as well. The word algebra is derived from al-jabr, one of the two operations used to solve quadratic equations, as described in his book. The words algorism and algorithm stem from algoritmi, the Latinization of his name. His name is also the origin of the Spanish word guarismo and of the Portuguese word algarismo, both meaning digit.
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That's straight out of Wikipedia. Oh, and using the Wiki as a source?
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C'mon. Don't be racist. It's exactly what all fundamentalists do, "We're right, you're wrong." |
islam isn't a race you douchbag. I'm being honest.
During the timeframe we're referencing Islamic/Muslim equalled Arab, for the most part. I'll admit, perhaps that was a bad word to use. Would you prefer xenophobic or narrow-minded or prejudiced? Clearly being taken serious isn't your purpose since you're making such a ridiculous argument, but name calling? Oh, whatever, I like the mud. Double douchebag to you. Oh yeah, that's the correct spelling, you silly person you.
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And for the record peel, all societies build on the ashes of previous ones. No Babylon, no Greece. No Greece, no Rome. No Rome, no England. And so on. Take a history class or read a book. |
They build upon it? What did islam add that was a "meaningful contribution"? They appropriated the cultures that they conquered and they conquered VAST numbers of cultures and huge chunks of land.
Not so much during this time frame, not to the extent of Rome, not even to the extent of the Turks during the ages of empires. You really are just being provocative for the sake of being provocative, aren't you?
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C'mon man, please don't be ignorant. It is curable. Read, and something other than propaganda.
Though if you want to switch your statements to "fundamentalist" Islam, I agree with you. They're as bad as fundamentalist Christians. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: |
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You might want to check out the post that followed the one you cited.
You are parroting the lies of a failed civilization that wants to take claim for ever accomplishment that happened on land it now controls, before it controlled it.
Most math advances were jacked from India. Medical from the Assyrians. And so on. Look beyond the propaganda and ask why, if the muslims invented algebra, a thousand years before the muslims existed, algebra was being used? Do you not see a disconnect? |
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