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thu_tinh
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: grammar help: I have/had visited Paris... |
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The correct grammar for this sentence is (from the textbook)
I had visited Paris in 2006.
But on the English school exam the English teachers have changed it to
I have visited Paris in 2006. (so that it would be wrong)
The students are now complaining about the question because in their text book there is a dialogue like this:
A: Where have you visited?
B: I have visited the Great the Wall.
(I think 'have' shouldn't be there, but you all know Korean textbooks)
Now the teachers are running around freaking out...so I wanted to know what is right and what is wrong? |
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nobbyken
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Location: Yongin ^^
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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I would say that the correct sentence could be : "I visited Paris in 2006."
The incorrect sentence sounds OK, until you add the year at the end.
I have visited would be OK, but not with the "..in 2006." at the end.
I would say that have blahblah is OK, but not if you put the year at the end of the sentence.
Maybe grammatically correct, but overuse of past tense, IMO. |
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ulmaeri
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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I believe both of the Paris sentences are grammatically correct. What is the context of the sentence?
have + pp is present perfect
This refers to an action in the past while keeping the emphasis on the present.
A: Let's go someplace new. Let's visit Paris.
B: I have visited Paris in 2006.
had + pp is past perfect
This needs another action in the past to go with. It is used to place the two actions in order. One happened before the other.
"Before I came to Korea, I had visited Paris."
Now the caveat. I am not a grammar expert. This is how I understand the tenses. So if anyone else has a better understanding, please feel free to correct me.
I find the textbooks, don't always teach tenses in correct context.
EDIT: Looks like nobbyken got there first. I like his answer better, but will leave this one here. Taking out the 'in 2006' does sound better. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: grammar help: I have/had visited Paris... |
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| thu_tinh wrote: |
The correct grammar for this sentence is (from the textbook)
I had visited Paris in 2006.
But on the English school exam the English teachers have changed it to
I have visited Paris in 2006. (so that it would be wrong)
The students are now complaining about the question because in their text book there is a dialogue like this:
A: Where have you visited?
B: I have visited the Great the Wall.
(I think 'have' shouldn't be there, but you all know Korean textbooks)
Now the teachers are running around freaking out...so I wanted to know what is right and what is wrong? |
Actually neither is correct. The correct sentence is "I visited Paris in 2006." Why? because of the specific date included in the sentence. The visiting of Paris is done and the exact date is stated. The structure you are using is called the present perfect, and should only be used when what was done in the past affects or is relevant to the action being talked about in the present.
Example.
A: Let's take a trip.
B: Okay. Where do you want to go?
A: I don't know. I'd like to go somewhere I have never been. I have visited Paris, but I have never been to London.
B: Okay, let's go to London. By the way, I have never been to Paris. When were you there?
A: Not to long ago. I visited Paris in 2006.
When using the Present Perfect you always use HAVE not HAD. The main verb carries the past tense (also known as the past participle) while the perfect is present.
have visited Paris
have gone to the beach
have eaten lunch
have had fun
Had is used in the Past Perfect and is used when talking about two things that happened in the past in order to keep clear what action took place first.
Example:
After arriving at the airport, I suddenly remembered (past) that I had forgotten (past perfect) the airline tickets.
The remembering happened after the forgetting.
Everything he told me, I had heard before.
The hearing preceeded the telling.
There was a city park where the city dump had been.
The past perfect makes it clear that the dump was there before the park.
Just to be clear, if there is a specific date in the sentence you have to use the simple past, not the past or present perfect.
BTW, I have visited the Great Wall is correct because there is no exact date specified and it can be taken to mean that the visiting of the Great Wall has some bearing on the present conversation. Although to be certain I would have to see the entire conversation.
IMHO The students have a right to complain. And the teachers, including yourself, should be more adapt at explaining the tenses. Please don't take this the wrong way, I am trying to make a constructive critisim, something that I am not especially good at.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by winterwawa on Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thu_tinh
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: grammar help: I have/had visited Paris... |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
IMHO The students have a right to complain. And the teachers, including yourself, should be more adapt at explaining the tenses. Please don't take this the wrong way, I am trying to make a constructive critisim, something that I am not especially good at.
Hope this helps. |
I totally understand what you're saying.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but as I mentioned in my post that the sentences are made to be wrong. The students have 5 sentences and they have to choose the one with the correct grammar.
I already checked over the test, but a Korean English teacher changed a lot of the questions and now we're having problems. And when it contradicts what they studied in their textbooks.
So I stated that in my original post that the textbook says this.
I just merely wrote what was in the textbook to ask a question to all of you, and now will refer to the teachers to look at this thread.
so thank you for your help. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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The present perfect is used to indicate an action that occurred at an indefinite time in the past. So, "I have visited Paris" means it could have happened yesterday or 20 years ago. This is why if you put a specific time, e.g. "in 2006," it would be incorrect (unless you said it in 2006 because then the time would still refer to some indefinite time during that year in which case it would be grammatically correct).
Tha past perfect is used to indicate an action that occurred before another action in the past. The other action may be inferred from the context, e.g. "In 2007, I had the choice to visit either Paris or London. I had visited Paris in 2006. Therefore, I decided to go to London."
The textbook is correct. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: grammar help: I have/had visited Paris... |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
| When using the past perfect you always use HAVE not HAD. |
 .....  ......
Winter, don't you mean "when using past perfect, you always use "had" not "have"?
Present Perfect = have or has + past participle
Past Perfect = had + past participle |
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Nismo
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nismo on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
The present perfect is used to indicate an action that occurred at an indefinite time in the past. So, "I have visited Paris" means it could have happened yesterday or 20 years ago. This is why if you put a specific time, e.g. "in 2006," it would be incorrect (unless you said it in 2006 because then the time would still refer to some indefinite time during that year in which case it would be grammatically correct).
Tha past perfect is used to indicate an action that occurred before another action in the past. The other action may be inferred from the context, e.g. "In 2007, I had the choice to visit either Paris or London. I had visited Paris in 2006. Therefore, I decided to go to London."
The textbook is correct. |
It is only correct if you use the proper punctuation and structure. For the example you gave the tense is wrong.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit either Paris or London. I had visited Paris in 2006. Therefore, I decided to go to London."
Using periods at the end of each sentence makes this usage incorrect, regardless of the context. However, if you use subordination to make the time line clear then you could use the tense as you indicated.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. Since I had visited Paris in 2006, I decided to go to London. "
By using Since instead of therefore you are (A)giving a correct indication of the time line (B) making a clearer distinction of why you are chosing London over Paris. If you want to use therefore, to be correct, the sentence must be written in the simple past.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. I visited Paris in 2006, therefore; I decided to go to London. "
Even in this construction, some grammarians would argue that simple past is prefered.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. Since I visited Paris in 2006, I decided to go to London. "
It is not a big deal, but I would think that past is still better than perfect past when a specfic time is used, but I see your point and 2006 could be considered a nonspicific time since it does not say when in 2006. However, past is still better. One final point, and that is in the sentence,
In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. It is the same construction, except you moved the time "In 2007" to the front of the sentence, but you still used simple past.
I had the choice to visit Paris or London in 2007. If I had visited Paris in 2006 is correct, then you should be able to use past perfect in this sentence ae well.
I could give references to back up what I am saying, but I am moving soon and all my books are packed. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: grammar help: I have/had visited Paris... |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
| When using the past perfect you always use HAVE not HAD. |
..... ......
Winter, don't you mean "when using past perfect, you always use "had" not "have"?
Present Perfect = have or has + past participle
Past Perfect = had + past participle |
Thanks, I edited it to make it correct. Sometimes I type faster than I think. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: grammar help: I have/had visited Paris... |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
| cubanlord wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
| When using the past perfect you always use HAVE not HAD. |
..... ......
Winter, don't you mean "when using past perfect, you always use "had" not "have"?
Present Perfect = have or has + past participle
Past Perfect = had + past participle |
Thanks, I edited it to make it correct. Sometimes I type faster than I think. |
no worries big daddy. I figured as much. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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I had seen it already.
I have seen it already.
So consider:
1)
"Do you want to see Kimchi Sex Explosion 2? Cinecore is showing it with english subtitles?"
"I have seen it already."
2)
"He asked me if I wanted to see Kimchi Sex Explosion 2 but I had seen it already so I turned him down."
It's a very hard and subtle distinction. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
I had seen it already.
I have seen it already.
So consider:
1)
"Do you want to see Kimchi Sex Explosion 2? Cinecore is showing it with english subtitles?"
"I have seen it already."
2)
"He asked me if I wanted to see Kimchi Sex Explosion 2 but I had seen it already so I turned him down."
It's a very hard and subtle distinction. |
You are still using the same set of rules, the only difference is that you are using 1 in a question answer dialog and 2 is in a narrative.
In example one, have seen is the perfect present and puts emphasis on the fact that what you saw makes an impact on what you are doing in the present. You obviously are making a choice and the choice is being made in ralation to the fact that you "have seen" the first choice even though we don't know what the second choice is.
The same is true with example 2, although you have change the example to a narrative. There is a second past tense event that happened.
The act of turning him down came after the seeing of the movie.
So, there is really no difference in the sentences you have added to the discussion and the explanation that I originally provided. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
The present perfect is used to indicate an action that occurred at an indefinite time in the past. So, "I have visited Paris" means it could have happened yesterday or 20 years ago. This is why if you put a specific time, e.g. "in 2006," it would be incorrect (unless you said it in 2006 because then the time would still refer to some indefinite time during that year in which case it would be grammatically correct).
Tha past perfect is used to indicate an action that occurred before another action in the past. The other action may be inferred from the context, e.g. "In 2007, I had the choice to visit either Paris or London. I had visited Paris in 2006. Therefore, I decided to go to London."
The textbook is correct. |
It is only correct if you use the proper punctuation and structure. For the example you gave the tense is wrong.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit either Paris or London. I had visited Paris in 2006. Therefore, I decided to go to London."
Using periods at the end of each sentence makes this usage incorrect, regardless of the context. However, if you use subordination to make the time line clear then you could use the tense as you indicated.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. Since I had visited Paris in 2006, I decided to go to London. "
By using Since instead of therefore you are (A)giving a correct indication of the time line (B) making a clearer distinction of why you are chosing London over Paris. If you want to use therefore, to be correct, the sentence must be written in the simple past.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. I visited Paris in 2006, therefore; I decided to go to London. "
Even in this construction, some grammarians would argue that simple past is prefered.
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. Since I visited Paris in 2006, I decided to go to London. "
It is not a big deal, but I would think that past is still better than perfect past when a specfic time is used, but I see your point and 2006 could be considered a nonspicific time since it does not say when in 2006. However, past is still better. One final point, and that is in the sentence,
In 2007, I had the choice to visit Paris or London. It is the same construction, except you moved the time "In 2007" to the front of the sentence, but you still used simple past.
I had the choice to visit Paris or London in 2007. If I had visited Paris in 2006 is correct, then you should be able to use past perfect in this sentence ae well.
I could give references to back up what I am saying, but I am moving soon and all my books are packed. |
A couple of points here:
Contrary to what you said, there is neither incorrect grammar nor punctuation in
"In 2007, I had the choice to visit either Paris or London. I had visited Paris in 2006. Therefore, I decided to go to London."
Of course, style improvements (which are what you have done) could be made. Personally, I would never write it as I did in my example. But you missed the point which was to show if the OP's original sentence, "I had visited Paris in 2006" could be correct as is. That is merely what I showed. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
I had seen it already.
I have seen it already.
So consider:
1)
"Do you want to see Kimchi Sex Explosion 2? Cinecore is showing it with english subtitles?"
"I have seen it already."
2)
"He asked me if I wanted to see Kimchi Sex Explosion 2 but I had seen it already so I turned him down."
It's a very hard and subtle distinction. |
It's not. #1 expresses that you have seen the movie at some indefinite time in the past, so present perfect is correct. In #2, you are expressing that you saw the movie before another action in the past (i.e. turning him down) so it requires past perfect.
Winter's explanation is also correct here; it's just a bit wordy. Keep it simple. |
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