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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| boatofcar wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
I was under the impression that Catholics often pray to patron saints. |
This is true. When you see a Catholic praying to Mary or a patron saint, they are praying for the saint's intercession. Basically, they're asking (through prayer, the only way you can communicate with someone in Heaven) for the saint to pray for them. It's all part of the doctorine of The Communion of Saints, which I could try to explain in my own words but I'll just copy and paste from Wikipedia because the definition there is better than one I could come up with.
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In Catholic terminology, the Communion of Saints is thus said to comprise the Church Militant (those alive on earth), the Church Penitent (those undergoing purification in Purgatory in preparation for heaven), and the Church Triumphant (those already in heaven). The damned are not among the Communion of Saints. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church as well as the Anglican Church and the Assyrian Church of the East point to this doctrine in support of their practice of asking the intercession of the saints in heaven, whose prayers (cf. Revelation 5: are seen as helping their fellow Christians on earth. These same churches refer to this doctrine in support of the practice of praying for the dead.
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Of course, if you think all that is a load of crap, that's fine. But please attack my faith by spreading misinformation about what the Catholic church actually teaches. |
It is indeed hard to swallow. Also, I forgot to add angels to the original list. Christians believe in them as well. The way I see it, if you pray to something, you are worshipping it. These patron saints, angels, and various others are serving the same role as gods--demigods, if you will. I don't see how that's different from the ancient Greeks believing in and worshipping Zeus as king of the gods as well as all his servants and children and associated supernatural creatures.
Anyway, this sets up a delicate house of cards. You're relying on the assumption that not only God exists and cares about you, but also that these patron saints do, and that they are able to receive and answer prayers, and that they are in Heaven which also exists, and that there is also a Purgatory and presumably a Hell. What would happen to your faith if you somehow found out that one of those not true (let's say Purgatory, which seems to go in and out of fashion)? |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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I prefer to pray to Oghma, Helm and Bhaal. Then I get a really cool ability: Summon Pit Demon!
Christians really do have three gods. They like to claim that they are the same, but it's fairly clear that they are treated as different persona in the bible. |
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boatofcar
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Location: Sheffield, UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
Anyway, this sets up a delicate house of cards. You're relying on the assumption that not only God exists and cares about you, but also that these patron saints do, and that they are able to receive and answer prayers, and that they are in Heaven which also exists, and that there is also a Purgatory and presumably a Hell. What would happen to your faith if you somehow found out that one of those not true (let's say Purgatory, which seems to go in and out of fashion)? |
You're absolutely right. It is a delicate house of cards, but so are a lot of things. If somehow I found out one of those things wasn't true, though, it wouldn't be so bad. For example, if somehow I was privy to divine revelation that hell didn't exist, or at least not in the way most people think about it, I would be all right. If I found out that God did not exist, obviously I'd have to do a lot of re-evaluation of my faith. |
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forster_0
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: |
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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
The great minds we have here on Dave's should look at this interesting list. Granted, some of these were just religious in name only.
http://www.adherents.com/people/100_scientists.html |
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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who tries to suggest that Einstein believed in a personal god is either ignorant or lying. Einstein's 'god' was actually no such thing. 'God' was the universe in all its wonders, all of which could be scientifically comprehended in time. He did not believe in the Hebrew god. To suggest that he was a theist is incredibly dishonest.
The vast majority of noble prize winners in science are atheists or agnostics. The better read, and intelligent, an individual is, the less likely he or she will believe in gods, goddesses and talking snakes. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| forster_0 wrote: |
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
The great minds we have here on Dave's should look at this interesting list. Granted, some of these were just religious in name only.
http://www.adherents.com/people/100_scientists.html |
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." |
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forster_0
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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That quote is an attention grabber eh?
I still think it's an interesting list. You can debate whoever went with the 'flow' of religion if you'd like, or who actually was a devout follower of whatever religion.
I just think its funny that so many today are apalled to think, that just perhaps, some intelligent guys in our history (even very recent history) weren't atheists. I guess we are just smarter today. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Blair Kicks Off Campaign To Become EU President
January 13, 2008
Apparently, since he has converted to Catholicism, Blair can now become the new leader over the entire European empire with the blessings of the papacy
The Observer | Jan 13, 2008
Alex Duval Smith in Paris
Tony Blair launched his campaign to become the first fully-fledged President of the European Union yesterday by describing the notion of left-and right-wing politics as redundant.
MORE ...
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/tonyblair/story/0,,2240063,00.html |
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