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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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 Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Re "Billy Pilgrim's" complaint - I actually was gonna go back and edit that out for being too corny, but my post kept getting longer, and I forgot to...
It's gone now, though ...
My mood was that anyone who insults Mother Teresa should at least be mildly insulted themselves for doing so, but I shouldn't have just singled out one poster I'm not familiar with.
You're all a bunch of pigs in my book ... 
Oh, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! |
If you'd bothered to read any of my previous posts, you'd see I haven't even mentioned Mother Teresa at all, one way or the other. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I should have been able to discern from your avatar pic that you're actually a Calvinist (or Hobbesian ...) |
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The_Eyeball_Kid
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Re "Billy Pilgrim's" complaint - I actually was gonna go back and edit that out for being too corny, but my post kept getting longer, and I forgot to...
It's gone now, though ...
My mood was that anyone who insults Mother Teresa should at least be mildly insulted themselves for doing so, but I shouldn't have just singled out one poster I'm not familiar with.
You're all a bunch of pigs in my book ...
Oh, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! |
Now who's being cruel to animals? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Mother Teresa |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
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| There's some evidence of vegetation on Mars and of creatures living there previously |
Rubbish. Pure speculation. Provide a link with hard evidence.
"In recent years speculation has grown as a result of studying the ALH84001 Mars meteorite which concluded that it contained fossilized microbes. Other scientists have subsequently sought to explain these findings on the basis of chemical processes. Both remain highly controversial within the scientific community." (Wikipedia) You're welcome to provide a more academic link.
My original point was that the Earth is strategically placed, to enable life. It also has a global magnetic field, protecting it from cosmic radiation, unlike Mars. So I refute the claim that "the earth is not fine tuned for life."
"...it was not very hospitable to life as we know it today"
But there was still life on Earth, & there were still comparitively favourable conditions for life, unlike Mars, or any other planet. The analogy between the existence of extraterrestrial life, & God, was not lost on me. You feel that there is extraterrestrial life, but don't feel there is a God. There is no hard evidence for either. |
Again, the earth of 4 billion years ago would not have been able to support life, especially the life of today. It was a long slow process.
Mars does have a magnetic field, albeit weak. And that's not to say it didn't have a stronger one in the past. And there is plenty of evidence it once had liquid water.
And remember life also fine tunes its environment. I believe much of the oxygen was created by early forms of life. Earth worms fine tune the soil for vegetation to grow which then die and produce food for earth worms.
And yes, earth does exist in a band called the "goldilocks" zone. Where water can exist as a liquid. But many planets in many different solar systems could also exist in this band. We found one not too long ago.
But whatever. You still need to deal with a 100 million galaxies each with 100 millon stars. Odds are a few of those stars will have planets that produce life. We're one of them. We won the lottery. Oh well. It's improbable you were born. But here you are. When you have a sex mechanism you will get something. When you have planets forming you will get some hospitable to life. |
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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Mother Teresa |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
My original point was that the Earth is strategically placed, to enable life. It also has a global magnetic field, protecting it from cosmic radiation, unlike Mars. So I refute the claim that "the earth is not fine tuned for life."
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The problem is, the observation that Earth is in the perfect place for life doesn't lend itself as an explanation for anything. Obviously, if we are here to discuss it, then we are in a place that is hospitable for life - it can't be any other way. Therefore your observation doesn't support nor negate creationism in any way - or it's alternative, a God-free universe.
However, if you think about it a little more - if there were a God, why are there only narrow bands of conditions where life is liveable in the first place? Why isn't the universe just uniform and stable?
And if Earth is so perfectly positioned by a creator, what are Mars, Venus, Mercury, Jupiter et al? Failed first drafts? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Mother Teresa |
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Justin: I asked for hard evidence. The authors on that website are using terminology like "what appears to be plant life, 1 km across". Hardly a convincing description. Interesting, yes, definitely, & thanks for posting. Conclusive? No, Sorry.
Mindmetoo wrote:
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| Again, the earth of 4 billion years ago would not have been able to support life |
Agreed. So where did life come from originally? Maybe a creator?
Billy
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| Why are there only narrow bands of conditions where life is liveable in the first place? |
That's the million dollar question.
Nobody has any conclusive & indisputable evidence about creation, yet I'm surprised they "feel" that there are UFO's & et's. A little inconsistent, don't you think?
You guys are all good academics though. It's been fun discussing. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Justin Hale & Billy Pilgrim
you guys crack me up..
you guys should get together and write a book..
you guys seem to speak of such certainty..
you guys speak as if you know for a fact!!
man has been proven wrong countless times, and they will be proven wrong again.. dont speak as if you are sure! becuase frankly you aint!
you are just coming off concieted!
you dont hold all the answers! just because in your reality you precieve it that way you do.. doesnt make it so!!
no one has the answers! the greatest scientists, greatest thinkers of our time.. all dont have the ultimate answer! so dont come on here and try to convince everyone you do!!
the earth is billions of years old as some scientists predict, predict with man made machines. know one knows for sure if there is life out there or was life on venus or anything.. fact is no one has the answers.
either positive or negative!
you believe in the negative!! so be it..
arent you the life of the party!
and dont try and say, well I dont believe in fairy tales..
you dont know what you are believing in becuase you just DONT KNOW!!!
there is more evidence that points to GOD than there is to no GOD!!
so be it... |
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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
there is more evidence that points to GOD than there is to no GOD!!
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And yet, again, you fail to mention any of it. Instead, it's just another parade of exclamation points and ad hominem attacks on my character. I like discussing this issue, but if you're not prepared to, please stop replying. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
and dont try and say, well I dont believe in fairy tales.. |
I don't believe in fairytale.
The discoveries we have made about the universe have been made through science. Those wondrous questions we have about the universe and our origins if they can be answered will be done so through science. If scientists make a mistake they will be corrected by science. God only comes into it as part of your personal philosophy of why we are here. And the only place we can squeeze God in is in our ignorant gaps of knowledge, I think this to not only be unnecessary but also dishonest as it is not equally probably that He exists or doesn't exist. |
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Smurfette
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought this was about Mother Theresa?? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Mother Teresa |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
Mindmetoo wrote:
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| Again, the earth of 4 billion years ago would not have been able to support life |
Agreed. So where did life come from originally? Maybe a creator? |
Well, maybe. But then maybe lightening is thrown by gods. Oh wait, we found a natural explanation for that. Maybe earthquakes are caused by an angry god. Oh wait. We found a natural explanation for that. Maybe the Sun is kept moving around the earth by angels. Oh wait. We found a natural explanation for that. And wait we found the earth moves around the sun and isn't at the center of the universe. Maybe bats navigate in the dark with psychic abilities. Oh wait. We found a natural explanation for that.
Say, maybe everything that exists in nature has a natural explanation? Not knowing the natural explanation (yet) doesn't mean "well, must be god". Or strengthens your case for god. Do you suggest we stop looking because you have a great "just so" story but no evidence?
You're arguing from gaps. You're committing the fallacy of argument from personal incredulity.
| Quote: |
| Nobody has any conclusive & indisputable evidence about creation, yet I'm surprised they "feel" that there are UFO's & et's. A little inconsistent, don't you think? |
Anyone mention UFOs? I didn't. I'm just speaking of life on other planets. I'm not saying they visit us or there is evidence of that. There isn't.
We know there is life on at least one planet. We know the initial conditions. We know planets form around other stars. We know the laws of nature on earth are the same on other planets. Chemistry doesn't change. We know complex organic molecules and amino acids are found in space. We know there are billions of other stars out there. It seems a safe bet there is life elsewhere.
We have no repeatable proof of even one god capable of creating life. We have no evidence of her existence.
The stance is fully consistent with Occam's Razor. So. No. Not even a little inconsistent. None whatsoever.
Your stance, however, is. You accept your own birth despite the seemingly staggering chain of events that had to take place to birth you. Even if there is a god, surely everyone has free will. Your parents had free will to date. Free will to have sex that night to conceive you. We have a huge, huge chain of free will choices stretching back, say, 100,000 years when the first humans arose (or do you believe it was 6,000 years ago?). And yet, gasp, here you are.
Yes, a staggering number of chances brought about human life. One single comet doesn't smack into earth at the right time and maybe dinosaurs don't go extinct. Or maybe earth formed around a metal poor star. But then again, who is to say if humans didn't arise, raptors would not have involved intelligence? Or we would have gotten intelligent humans but around a metal poor star, we would have never had metal to achieve a technological civilization. Or check out Guns, Germs, and Steel. It was luck that the fertile crescent got the majority of animals and plants suitable for domestication.
In sum, you're a person who has won the lottery arguing god must have chosen you! But like it or not, despite the great odds against you wining the lottery, someone has to win. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Mother Teresa |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Justin: I asked for hard evidence. The authors on that website are using terminology like "what appears to be plant life, 1 km across". Hardly a convincing description. Interesting, yes, definitely, & thanks for posting. Conclusive? No, Sorry. |
It hasn't been established that it actually is vegetation, but it certainly looks like it to me. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: Mother Teresa / Creation |
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justin: 'Looks like plant life', & 'is plant life' are 2 different things
"Appears to be a God" & "there is a God", ditto.
mindmetoo: I have no argument with the astronomical odds point you keep repeating. I'll go much further than 100,000 years, & say around 3-4 million years:
"Australopithecus afarensis is an extinct hominid which lived between 3.9 and 2.9 million years ago." Lucy in Odulvai Gorge, East Africa, was the earliest known prototype of "homo sapiens".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus_afarensis
If you reject 'Lucy', as being human, there's this (300,000 BP):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Homo_sapiens
I'm not sure that science & theology, are mutually exclusive of one another. Was evolution random, or planned? Nobody knows for sure. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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The Vedic view that I subscribe to (for free) is that behind all natural phenomena like earthquakes, tornados, and volcanos are higher dimensional demigods in charge of managing specific functions of universal management by subtle pyschic powers, adjusting things according to collective karma, etc.
Such "natural" disasters serve the purpose of reminding fallen conditioned souls that this world is basically miserable, and real happiness is to be found elsewhere (in the spiritual universes far beyond the material sky...)
Consider that God would know all the science involved more perfectly than any mundane speculative scientist, and the demigods (reportedly 33 million) delegated with administrative power in this universe would presumably also be super-advanced in technical knowledge... |
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