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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| ED209 wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
And if chimps are our closest cousins.. Why didn�t they or some other monkey ever figure out how to crack open a nut? Millions of millions of years and still our closest ancestor figure out how to start a fire but we could.. Again CHANCE!!? |
Mother Teresa was not a chimp for you to suggest so takes offence beyond anything posted so far. |
you still here.? wow I stand corrected. monkeys have evolved  |
Glad too hear you are now standing, your knuckles must be sore from dragging them on the ground all day. Now what is the connection between Mother Teresa and evolution? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
but that doesn�t mean science HAS figured out the laws of the universe!
and can say clearly there is no god ! so calm down ok!
! |
You don't seem to grasp no one in science (beyond a handful of outspoken atheists) are saying that.
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| then why haven�t world leaders who have been trained at Harvard, Yale, oxford all getting up the G7 summits or speaking to the people and saying. " due to the latest evidence we are sure to say that we evolved from monkeys and their is no god"!! |
Because they are rational humans and know science doesn't answer those kinds of questions? The question is beyond silly and doesn't really paint you as much in the way of an intellectual.
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| yeah and some people believe we come from monkeys! |
No. Biology says humans and monkeys had a common ancestor. See my second post about the molecular evidence.
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| because if scientists clearly had proof they would bring it forward and show the world" HEY LOOK GUYS" see!! real proof! not a theory from fossil but real hard evidence.. but like I said no scientist will get up and say that because he would have to be bonified crazy too do so.. |
The evidence has been offered.
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| Galileo or Einstein or Newton were different they were proving something which could be proven! |
What do you think they "proved" and how did they prove it? How is it materially different from how evolution "proves" itself?
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| never has there been an example presented, fossil or otherwise, that one species transformed itself into another species of substantial quality to be 100% accurate . true? |
"of substantial quality to be 100% accurate" This isn't even grammatically correct. If you can pose sensible questions, i can offer answers.
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| hey im all for science! but im not a gambler! you are letting it all ride on science without substantial evidence.. |
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| Do you know who scientific research is done? How research dollars are allocated? |
not by gambling!!! still you are going off topic!! |
Science has access to limited funds. It, in a sense, gambles on areas science that it thinks will prove most fruitful.
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| fact is you don�t have all the answers! so it�s STUPID for you to not believe in GOD! |
One could make the argument it's stupid not to believe in the space aliens that are going to come and save us all from AIDS, cancer, and global warming. You can invent any fairy story. I'm not going to believe in a fairy story until I have good evidence. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Science only says what it has proven. There are an uncountable number of things it hasn't proven or even started looking at. It will. Asking why science has not given all the answers yet is nothing more than a childish request.
Also, science will not die, as it's not something you believe in or a philosophy, it's a process. Nothing more or less. People who talk about science as a philosophy or something that will become outdated have absolutely no idea what it is (which is scary, that amount of ignorance). Science will not become obsolete until we know everything (whether that's possible is another discussion). |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: |
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mindmetoo,
the patience you've demonstrated in trying to explain things to itaewonguy blows mother teresa out of the water. when your time comes, saint jude is going to have to step aside as the patron saint of lost causes. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
You don't seem to grasp no one in science (beyond a handful of outspoken atheists) are saying that.
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a bunch?? more like every atheist! and you were one of them until you started to see how crazy you sound..
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| Because they are rational humans and know science doesn't answer those kinds of questions? The question is beyond silly and doesn't really paint you as much in the way of an intellectual. |
Intellectual?? hahahah like an atheist sounds like an intellectual?
THERE IS NO GOD!!! science proves this!! blar blar blar. christians and other religious people are all stupid believing in fairy tales! yeah very smart group of people!
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| No. Biology says humans and monkeys had a common ancestor. See my second post about the molecular evidence. |
im not doubting that.. doesnt mean we spawned from them!
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The evidence has been offered.
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yes offered,, but didnt stick..
never has there been an example presented, fossil or otherwise, that one species transformed itself into another species of substantial quality...
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| Science has access to limited funds. It, in a sense, gambles on areas science that it thinks will prove most fruitful. |
yes but the theory of evolution is rolling dice!
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| One could make the argument it's stupid not to believe in the space aliens that are going to come and save us all from AIDS, cancer, and global warming. You can invent any fairy story. I'm not going to believe in a fairy story until I have good evidence. |
but you do believe in a fairy story! you believe men came from monkeys!
and we all came from the same gene pool! now thats sciencefiction at its best!
as i have been saying all along.. you and christians are the same..
you both belive in stories with personal satisfactory evidence!
Last edited by itaewonguy on Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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itaewonguy.
sorry about the comment i made above. while i think you aren't making a solid case in your arguments, i commend you and mindmetoo both for getting to page 25 and keeping things civil.
you're alright. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| endofthewor1d wrote: |
itaewonguy.
sorry about the comment i made above. while i think you aren't making a solid case in your arguments, i commend you and mindmetoo both for getting to page 25 and keeping things civil.
you're alright. |
no worries.. keeps us entertained I guess..
by stating im not making a solid arguement its safe to say you are an evolutionist and anti creationist? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
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The evidence has been offered.
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yes offered,, but didnt stick.. |
Sticks in the mind of born again Christian and geneticist Francis Collins. And sticks for every scientific organization and university biology department around the globe.
It doesn't stick if you a) don't read the evidence b) don't understand the evidence.
Now I've supplied you both an easy to understand analogy regarding the undeniable genetic evidence and a 5 part summary from a real evolutionary biologist about the genetic evidence. You either need to address that and explain its failings, agree, or admit you simply don't understand the evidence. Anything else is just blowing hot air.
I await your detailed explanation why the evidence from proteins, transposons, endogenous retroviruses, psuedogenes, etc are not powerful confirmatory evidence for evolution.
I'll repeat. Anything else is just hot air. Why is 1+1 = 2 not necessarily the only possible answer? Don't give me crap about G8 leaders standing up and announcing something about evolution and no god. You've clearly stated the evidence doesn't stick for evolution, the evidence is not enough, the jury is still out (what jury?).
Now, tackle that evidence. Take your time.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| endofthewor1d wrote: |
itaewonguy.
sorry about the comment i made above. while i think you aren't making a solid case in your arguments, i commend you and mindmetoo both for getting to page 25 and keeping things civil.
you're alright. |
no worries.. keeps us entertained I guess..
by stating im not making a solid arguement its safe to say you are an evolutionist and anti creationist? |
that would be a safe assumption. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
I await your detailed explanation why the evidence from proteins, transposons, endogenous retroviruses, psuedogenes, etc are not powerful confirmatory evidence for evolution.
Now, tackle that evidence. Take your time. |
hahahaah nice try!!!
But NO!!....
Irreducible complexity.. you tackle that if you want..
Prove to me that crop circles were not made by aliens!!?
Ill show you evidence. Can you prove it wasn�t aliens???
Listen.. You are forcing a theory down my throat and trying to assume that I don�t understand the mathematics of it all...
im not saying im a scientist! I dont have to know every field in scientist
dawkins or hitchens dont know about biology or some other field.. so what
Listen all your jargon and formulas are great! But smoke n mirrors!
Just because there are similarities in apes DNA and skeletons to ours doesn�t mean we came from them! If you take the side of the Christian which im not saying I am.. IM also not saying I disagree with evolution.. But! The Christian ID believer might say.. Well
God created all animals, and used similar DNA, genes, skeletons in apes.
Just coincidence... can�t prove it otherwise...
So I go back to the tests in a lab! Prove it in a lab! And then show me!
And I will believe it! science is about experiencements right??
Still even if we did evolve from apes! Maybe Apes were our ancestors
Doesn�t mean that their is no god!
Maybe gods plan was to evolve us from animals to give humans science, give children education, give humans a purpose etc.. etc... bla blar blar..
All I am saying is.. The theory of evolution doesn�t prove their is no god!!
It�s just trying to prove we are ancestors from primates! and things evolve
Im not denying this is true or false... my arguement as of 2008 there is still not 100% evidence to swing one way..
AND certainly no evidence points to there not being a GOD!! |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
I await your detailed explanation why the evidence from proteins, transposons, endogenous retroviruses, psuedogenes, etc are not powerful confirmatory evidence for evolution.
Now, tackle that evidence. Take your time. |
hahahaah nice try!!!
But NO!!.... |
Hot air? Again, you've asked for the evidence. I gave you the evidence. What is your problem with the molecular evidence?
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| Irreducible complexity.. you tackle that if you want.. |
I did. Your eye claim. Need the url again?
The rest of your hot air ignored. You need to deal with the evidence you claim doesn't exist. Show me where the molecular evidence falls down. I've examined all your links and commented. Time for you to put up. Anything else is just bluster. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
But NO!!....
Hot air? Again, you've asked for the evidence. I gave you the evidence. What is your problem with the molecular evidence?
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| Irreducible complexity.. you tackle that if you want.. |
I did. Your eye claim. Need the url again?
The rest of your hot air ignored. You need to deal with the evidence you claim doesn't exist. Show me where the molecular evidence falls down. I've examined all your links and commented. Time for you to put up. Anything else is just bluster. |
want a URL of someones theory?
interesting.. but still like the link im sending you now its someone elses theory!
everything is someones theory! eventually everyone needs to decide which way they want to go..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1iCjKWzeEE
You support DAWKINS - & - HITCHENS
And I could choose the side of BEHE & DEMBSKI
The problem is when you get down to the very core of it! The actual final big question..
The CORRECT ANSWER must be!
WELL WE JUST DONT KNOW! ( the big question) it could go either way!
But its extreme atheists like you who with your arrogance won�t to say you are sure!! Sorry brother... but you just can�t be 100% sure...
I want to thank you for debating with me and opening me up to other ways of thinking.. I haven�t thought about this for years.. so it was a fun and an interesting week..
NOW... I will open myself up a little here, which I shouldn�t because it will only leave way for you to attack me.. BUT! Hey Im opening up so if you choose to take that route I understand. And I might be back in part 2 to defend myself.. Im going to state first off..
That of course I AM NOT SURE OF THIS.. But I choose to believe in this theory at present in my life.. I am only 33.. So of course my ideas will change over my life.. But I am pretty certain that I will not have a solid conclusion when I die if we were created or just evolve by chance with no will..
Ok here we go...
Ill start with Christianity�
I believe there was a man named Jesus Christ.
Many believe he died on the cross..
Some believe in fact he didn�t die on there..
I wasn�t there so I can�t say for sure..
But I believe he was not sent to earth from god..
I believe he did not have divine powers..
I do believe he was an inspirational man was a great speaker
And was out to do go! But he was just a man! with a dream.
I don�t believe in the bible and all its stories!
I believe the bible was re written to suit the churches benefits
Many scrolls and pages of the original bible lay hidden in the Vatican or destroyed
I believe the church fabricated the legend of Jesus to make him a step above man To recruit followers, which best way to do this..? to make a man out to be more than human..
All religion has the same goal! There road to get there is different
But if religious people want to believe in god and that makes them happy.
I NEVER argue with their faith. None of my business!! If that�s what gets them through life I will not question them�good for them I say!
Do I believe in a god in the sky with a white beard who spoke to Moses, Noah and sent down JESUS..? NO!!
A god as humans like to dream of sitting in a white cloud. Blar blar?
NO!!
What happened to Jesus and mary well we are still looking into that evidence..
But most things realistic which have been written about him by historians seem true..
He was beaten and crucified by romans to settle disputes with the jews etc.. last supper, I believe in that.
. most stories in the bible seem unbelievable.. But hey im not saying impossible.. 
Moving on�
DO I believe in Aliens?.. OF COURSE..
HOW could we be so naive to think we are the only planet in a universe which is infinite in size.. We look at stars which are not even really there
Stars which lights burned out millions of years ago.. But takes that long to reach us
In all that space in all those galaxies as I stand here in my little galaxy im sure life is out there somewhere.. Problem is we can�t build a telescope big enough to see squat! Just because we can�t see it doesn�t mean its not there we could never reach stars to see for ourselves.. blackholes? I dont know for sure havent really looked into it enough..
BUT I believe in Aliens..
Evolution� ok this is what you have been waiting for..
Do I believe in Darwins theory of evolution..?
I do to a degree. Also I agree that he has been proven wrong many times also..
Due to lack of science equipment in those days its plausible their were mistakes..
I believe we have evolved over time..
I believe gradual mutation & evolution has happened..
BUT!! Now this is where I debate the way I do..
There are missing links in the core of evolution which don�t add up
So I will be questioning that theory as everyone else does..
Did we spawn from a puddle of water millions of years ago?..
I don�t know.. Can�t be sure of that.. But I am open to either out come
Evolution has played a role on our way to where we are today..
But the means and the root of how we got here are questionable to me and as are the reason why we are here and where we are going and for what.....
WILL..
Multicultural organism�s, atoms, molecules etc etc....All the things which help create life.
what gives them a will? Everything needs a will to live right? everything has a will,
So how could cells or early bacteria know the course to take? So these questions can only be answered in theory.
I swing toward intelligent design on this issue as I see the worlds mechanics. And the micros in cells how they all work together seem so complex for just a theory of they happened by chance..
but that�s me,..
Everything has a will to survive so where does that will come from?..
And that�s ONE of many million dollar questions which will be on everyone�s mind for ever. I believe the answers will not be answered in our lifetime maybe never,..
who created the will? or who programmed the will to do what it does..
as a computer programmer can make algorithms produce data on its on jsut with a program whats to say bacteria or molocuals are not just programmed microcode which have been programmed to start the life process?? we have only began to use computers, but computers which might have been used to manufacture us are so advanced its just undetectable? this cant be proven.. but now im turning part science fiction but it can all be preceived that way...
And so many other questions which are to deep and not possible to answer by anyone at this time remains in me..
Do I believe the human body is powered by energy? YES
Do I believe that energy, (our spirits) live on forever? YES in someway I haven�t gotten into spirituality enough to fully understand about the power of our energy.. but I know there is something there all throughout history humans have felt and spoken of it.. a chi that centers the body.. I believe in the past meditators and humans could tune in more easily due to less distractions and focusing on it..
I haven�t made my conclusion yet..Our bodies die but the energy that powers it doesn�t.. It escapes the body in what ever form or shape and releases in some kind of way..
How ,what, why, for sure.. I don�t really know.. that�s one of the questions I will search for answers in my life.. That intrigues me. Im sure you have answers you will seek in your lifetime..
GHOSTS
I have to believe in ghosts because there are too many stories of them
Which date back thousands of years. Were they all delusions? Cant be sure of that.. But for me.. my grandparents in Italy have experienced it first hand.. Also my mum and dad and their friends.. So I accept my family�s testimonies on this.. also along with the millions of others. Atleast a couple must be true I think.. and that�s enough for me.. this is another answer I seek.. its something which cant be brought forward with a snap of a finger to show as proof.. but I will search my life with an open mind to hopefully see something of a dead spirit or lost soul..maybe never happen.. but again this is something which cant be disproved and im interested in this.. if I experience this it will conclude my energy theory of when we die..
Personally If it�s possible that I am standing here typing on this PC chatting to you, and supposedly I evolved from a puddle of water from bacteria which evolved with a will to create life, Then I believe that energy doesn�t have to end there.. But that�s where it all hits the roadblock
How can their be spirits from evolution? I have theories.. but Our brains just don�t have those answers and hundreds more like it.. So I keep questioning myself..
I am a searcher , I am a barefoot walker, a seeker
BUT I walk with an open mind! So I dislike atheists!
They come across as an arrogance bunch of closed minded sods..
They don�t have the answers to the million dollar questions..
They have a theory which they choose to believe in and block out other possibilities which have merit.
That�s all.. I have my theory.. But I like to be positive guess that�s just who I am naturally..
Evolution evolved very slowing but all the organs and tissues must have had memory in someway! So we are history pages of our past..
I see proof of a designer everywhere I look..
Everything has a purpose! From lets say the first bacteria in that pond..
To a rose bud opening! How all animals live and survive with a purpose..
Our human bodies, trees, animals all here by chance?
As you believe YES.. I disagree.. And say NO!
How we came about For what purpose where we are going? I believe we cant be sure..
That�s were I am at�
You care to share you story? As we close up this debate,..
Its been fun and interesting debating with you.. I guess im stubborn to a point that its possible we are all wrong! And humans are looking in the wrong areas. And coming up with theories with primitive tools and assuming we are right because well HEY! We are humans so we must be Hahahha
But if they say earth is 4.6 billion years old how old is the universe? And whats to say we are not just new borns in the universe and the creator of this all is from another planet?
Hey! Maybe we are some rich kids science project in the alpha 4d zone. billions of lights away. We have ant farms they have human colonies hahahahahaaha
I guess I can safely say I choose to believe in Intelligent design & evolution as of now.. I will always have an open mind..
Peace.. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Still hot air. You put down the claim the evidence for evolution does not stick. The "jury is out". I've provided the evidence. The ball is now in your court to examine those links, consider my book analogy, and get back to me with detailed comments why this evidence does not stick.
The evidence again:
http://evolution-101.blogspot.com/2006/03/molecular-evidence-1-protein.html
http://evolution-101.blogspot.com/2006/04/molecular-evidence-2-dna-functional.html
http://evolution-101.blogspot.com/2006/04/molecular-evidence-3-transposons.html
http://evolution-101.blogspot.com/2006/04/molecular-evidence-4-redundant.html
http://evolution-101.blogspot.com/2006/04/molecular-evidence-5-endogenous.html
Again, take your time. I'l answer germane questions. Not silly rambling questions about G8 leaders proclaiming god doesn't exist.
Further a theory of eye evolution has been put to you, an example of what you and ID people call "irreducibly complex", something that needs an intelligent designer. There are a few others in their locker: the bacterial flagellum, the clotting cascade, the human immune system. We can deal with those too if you can frame a readable claim with a few specifics. I don't tolerate your hand waving and hot air blowing.
If you choose to pursue the ID canard, can you define what you believe is "intelligent design", "irreducible complexity", what each predicts, and what evidence is required to support each? I'm not going to argue against a vague idea in your little mind and let you move the goal post.
Anyway, I provided the evidence for eye evolution. Aside from hand waving and screeching "it's just a theory!" (in science a theory IS an explanation, the best way we understand something happened), do you have any specifics why the theory of eye evolution is impossible or unlikely and the evidence shows "god" is a better explanation for eye evolution? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The theory of evolution is not trying to disprove a God nor is it trying to explain genesis (the creation of life). It is trying to explain how life formed from the beginning. Nothing less, nothing more. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Everything has philosophical implications - science doesn't exist in a vacuum.
The way modern theories of evolution are based on a presupposition of the existence of life and laws of nature/physics enables scientists to circumvent the issue of God's existence, but philosophical implications of the theory have widely been used in propaganda for atheistic worldviews.
Arguably, the creation of life - and physical laws - is beyond the domain of material science if the source of everything is a nonphysical entity.
In the Vedic model, life itself is essentially nonphysical and is an atomic particle of consciousness of the Absolute Person, whose infinite consciousness pervades everything.
I think that a such a model - with theistic implications - can better explain consciousness, and quantum theory lends support for the idea that conciousness can influence/control matter...
I sure that there's a long way to go, though, before such a paradigm-breaking theory would be accepted as scientifically verifiable... |
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