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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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slideaway77
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Watched this the other day after browsing the house price crash UK website.
Fascinating. F'in paricsite banks. Its pretty deep, but I grasped the main ideas. Questioned the idea of a nationalised bank some governments are far to currupt to run a tea shop, never mind the finances.
But my eyes are open brother! Excellent. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Watched this the other day after browsing the house price crash UK website.
Fascinating. F'in paricsite banks. Its pretty deep, but I grasped the main ideas. Questioned the idea of a nationalised bank some governments are far to currupt to run a tea shop, never mind the finances.
But my eyes are open brother! Excellent. |
I know ...it's so sinister and simple that as he says the human mind rejects it....but this is no conspiracy it's pure fact...amazing !
I think if more people had this information and how they have to rethink their entire universe , they might open up to a lot of other obvious world truths...that wars are for profit etc .... |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Watched it. I have no problem with how banks operate. There's a demand for credit. There's a bigger demand than there is deposits. Factional reserves is a good way to solve that demand. Without it, the government would have to get into the loan business. Governments are more than happy to loan money to get votes. Banks loan money for good ideas. Without it, banks would loan money at very high interest rates and only to their best customers. Not many people would be able to get mortgages to buy homes or loans to buy cars. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Mindmetoo that's an interesting take .I think you missed the point that it's not sustainable and there are far better systems we could use which are....I think you also missed the sinister nature of it all . |
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slideaway77
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm no treehugger, but consider consumerism. What fuels consumerism? Answer-Consumer Credit via banks. Without the availablity of credit, consumers would be limited. Girlfriends would be stopped from emulating the celebrity lifestyles. 
I think the best line in it for me was a quote froma banker, something like,
"whoever contriols the money supply, controls the country. Regardless of whos in power." 
Clearly currupt regimes would kill the concept of a nationalised bank but in theory, a good alternative to the status quo?
In the UK most people are all fur coat and no knickers. Ie living way beyond their means. I guess America is much the same but more aware because your now in recession because of credit/subprime. |
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crash bang
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Location: gwangju
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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aargh. why do i always stumble across videos i want to watch just as i turn the radio on? fine. i'll go turn the radio off. this better be good  |
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crash bang
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Location: gwangju
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| RUN ON THE BANKS! FIGHT THE POWER! STICK IT TO THE MAN! |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| The end value of all fiat currency is zero. The dollar will be no different. The question is how long it can last, and what will replace it. |
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Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Banks don't need 100% reserves, and having 100% reserves would harm the economy.
However, I'm against fiat currency and want something that has objective value as the currency, or is backed by something with objective value (like silver or gold).
I would be against the government implementing a gold standard. Free banking should take place, where the government doesn't tell anyone what type of standard to use. I'd assume banks would naturally gravitate toward a precious metal of some type, yet they would all continue with fractional reserves. It's highly inefficient to maintain a 100% reserve.
Debt, an IOU, something earning interest, IS an objective value. It actually increases in value. That's why (non-fiat) fractional reserve banking still has an objective basis.
I'm not sure if Ron Paul favours free banking or a gold standard. Many from the Austrian school favour a gold standard if they don't understand the objective value of loans. I think Dr Paul is pro free banking though unlike many Austrians.
In short, the problem is not with credit and debt, as those are very useful and functional tools of society. Production would never be on the scale it is without loans. The actual problem is with fiat government currency, which gets worse when there are fractional reserve banks issuing fiat notes/debt. The problem itself though is not fractional reserve banking. |
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Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_stunt wrote: |
I think if more people had this information and how they have to rethink their entire universe , they might open up to a lot of other obvious world truths...that wars are for profit etc .... |
Wars are not for "profit"--they take capital away from production. Production is the root of all wealth.
The only way a war could help with profit is if it is a war of self-defence. In that case, the war does not create profit and actually takes important capital away from production, but it does defend the country from destruction which would cost even more. |
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Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| slideaway77 wrote: |
Watched this the other day after browsing the house price crash UK website.
Fascinating. F'in paricsite banks. Its pretty deep, but I grasped the main ideas. Questioned the idea of a nationalised bank some governments are far to currupt to run a tea shop, never mind the finances.
But my eyes are open brother! Excellent. |
There are nationalized banks, and that is the entire problem. Governments DO run the finances, that is the problem. They issue a fiat currency and THEY get first dubs on it, inflating everybody else's money except those who get direct contracts with the government immediately. They steal everyone's savings by devaluing money thru fiat currency.
The solution is to end the government mandated law of fiat currency.
However, governments and all people who support the welfare state oppose this, because they require a fiat currency to print off more money to pay for their pet projects.
The solution existed 100 years ago in many countries and inflation levels were nowhere near what they are now--when they possessed free banking systems unregulated by government fiat currency. Inflation has been high ever since Nixon unpegged the US dollar with gold and finally submitted to 100% pure fiat. |
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slideaway77
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| So the banks are blameless in creating debt? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| slideaway77 wrote: |
| So the banks are blameless in creating debt? |
Debt is created by a demand for debt. Are you going to buy a home for cash?
Money as Debt, interestingly, argues against a gold standard. It's solution was simply "okay first we develop an economy based on 100% renewable energy like geothermal and then the government can loan money."
Well geez. It's all so easy. Last time I checked we have a free market. To develop any alternative energy will require the capital investment by companies. This will involve bank loans. Gasp.
And again this notion of the government making loans is highly problematic. Politicians like to be popular. Politicians don't loan money based on profit. Think what politicians do with tax dollars and the wonderfully efficient use of those dollars. Now imagine them in the loan business.
The system we have isn't perfect. Subprime blah blah. All markets experience irrationality and then suffer for it. The stock market, futures markets. The solution isn't to replace them, however. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bryan wrote: |
| However, governments and all people who support the welfare state oppose this, because they require a fiat currency to print off more money to pay for their pet projects. |
We are in agreement over fractional reserves. And as you say, such fractional reserves drive economic growth. Part of fiat currency is creation of currency based on a demand for loans from banks. If credit demand exceeds even what banks can loan out via fractional reserves, the fed loans banks money which the banks then loan out to clients.
Additionally, this to me seems a good lever of control over the economy. High prime to cool inflation. Low prime to encourage investment. A business plan that's unworkable at 5% interest suddenly becomes workable at 4% interest.
The third arm is simply just creating more money and then crediting it to the government directly. There's loads of opportunity for abuse but isn't this why the fed is an arms length institution, not under congress's direct daily control? Inflation has been pretty tame for the last 20 years. Central banks in the western world have been very conservative. Economic downturns have, likewise, been fairly mild compared to times past. |
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