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| Well, IS it? |
| Yes, it's such a strongly-held belief system that it might as well be treated that way. |
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32% |
[ 13 ] |
| No, it's a practice within many sects of many faiths, but it is not a religion by itself. |
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45% |
[ 18 ] |
| Why can't we all just get along? |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Vegetarianism is not a religion per se, but I think it may be one of the by-products of a spiritual revolution which will gradually prevail (to save the world from the scourge of materialism.)
Liberalism ultimately needs to go beyond humanism and see the intrinsic value of all lifeforms - which are all interelated.
Is it necessary to kill animals? I think the most logical answer is that it may sometimes be necessary - when there is not enough vegetarian food available - but most often it is neither necessary nor justifiable.
Environmental concerns - combined with growing concern over the plight of animals - will most likely result in political pressure on the meat industry to curb its destructive ways.
I think that as more light is shed on this dark industry, the more it will be seen as posing a major health threat of global proportions.
The slaughterhouse interests have generally relied on bribes and political corruption to defeat any meaningful regulation of their bloody business - and even package it in patriotic terms to get governmental support, but spirited opposition is steadily growing.
"The Bobster" apparently thinks that the whole matter should be reduced to a discussion about respecting personal taste preferences and extending common courtesy to meat-eaters, but that begs (and avoids) the real question: Are you gonna be part of the problem or part of the solution?
I think that both informal social pressure (on a personal level) and formal political pressure (on a public level) need to be brought to bear in order to win a battle that's worth winning on many levels ... |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| "The Bobster" apparently thinks that the whole matter should be reduced to a discussion about respecting personal taste preferences and extending common courtesy to meat-eaters, |
Um, no, not the whole matter, but it is an aspect of things that is often overlooked, viz, "Since we don't agree about this, what is the best way for us to behave toward each other?"
1. Since you have stated here that it is NOT a religion, then it does need to be treated on the levels that remain, those of a personal preference or (via kermo) a political statemment.
2. Asking others to succumb to your personal preferences and political notions is at best rude and unkind - at worst, it borders on fascism.
3. Vegetarians will not see this as rude, however, because they believe that the rightness of their opinions supercedes any social grace and courtesy - as I've said in other discussions, this is attitude of moral certitude is nothing but arrogance, and an arrogance that cloaks itself in kindness, which makes it rather more annoying to some of us.
| Quote: |
| but that begs (and avoids) the real question: Are you gonna be part of the problem or part of the solution? |
Um, you problem is that some of us not yet convinced that MY hamburger is YOUR problem.
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| I think that both informal social pressure (on a personal level) and formal political pressure (on a public level) need to be brought to bear in order to win a battle that's worth winning on many levels ... |
Frankly, I think you'll have better success following Mao's dictum that revolution comes out of the barrel of a gun ... and in the end, with your talk of political pressure (always backed up by police and armies, never otherwise) and "battles," it just might come to that. If you have your way. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="The Bobster"]
| laogaiguk wrote: |
Omkara
| Quote: |
| Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma." |
I think I will, and thanks for the recommendation. I've heard of it before, of course, though it's rather recently published, I believe. I'm not opposed to changing my mind, but it's MY mind and I'd prefer to do the work of refurbishing it myself rather than be coerced into it.
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Nothing at last is sacred but your mind. Amen, brother.
The problem with most people is that they won't use their mind. I think there is ethical meat eating. The point is to reason it through and come to a solid concusion--and, like you pointed out, wisdom is not opposed to a change of mind. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| 3. Vegetarians will not see this as rude, however, because they believe that the rightness of their opinions supercedes any social grace and courtesy - as I've said in other discussions, this is attitude of moral certitude is nothing but arrogance, and an arrogance that cloaks itself in kindness, which makes it rather more annoying to some of us. |
As I've said in other discussions, this is not true nearly as much as you seem to think it is. Most vegetarians are NOT arrogant as you think they are. As Kermo has said in another thread, this idea that you know how vegetarians think even though some are telling you something completely different IS quite arrogant. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
Omkara
Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma." |
I think I will, and thanks for the recommendation. I've heard of it before, of course, though it's rather recently published, I believe. I'm not opposed to changing my mind, but it's MY mind and I'd prefer to do the work of refurbishing it myself rather than be coerced into it.
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Nothing at last is sacred but your mind. Amen, brother.
The problem with most people is that they won't use their mind. I think there is ethical meat eating. The point is to reason it through and come to a solid concusion--and, like you pointed out, wisdom is not opposed to a change of mind. |
I agree that there absolutely can be ethical meat-eating. However, there are other reasons to be vegetarian. Also, just because you can have ethical meat-eating, it doesn't mean that some people won't still choose to be vegetarian for ethical reasons. I mean, that works too.
I can respect meat eaters, and I can respect vegetarians. Why can't we just all get along? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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The "scourge of materialism"?
Even in a vegetarian world, you'll still have to buy your organic carrots from someone. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't say the scourge of commercial enterprises.
The only really ethical examples of meat-eating that I can think of is when there is a scarcity of vegetarian food or after animals die naturally.
It's also quite ethical to eat roadkill - Jay Leno was joking about it in his monologue last night (referring to a news story that roadkill-eating had recently been legalized in some southern state - Tennessee, I think.)
It is true that gentle persuasion is better than coercion or force as far as changing people's' minds, but big corporations profiting off wholesale animal slaughter will probably need to be legally pressured to stop doing so ...
Although vegetarianism (in all its varieties) doesn't constitute a religion, the unnecessary killing of animals is a religious principle followed in many religions. Arguably, most original Christians were vegetarian - but were forced to give it up by fiercely carnivorous King Constantine (who reportedly boiled Christian vegetarians alive in oil ...)
The Seventh Day Adventists - who run many vegetarian restaurants in Korea - apparently accept it as part of their religion. |
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cunning_stunt
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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If it's a religion then I'm agnostic . I practice is selectively at times , only eating chicken andf fish...you know...dumb animals . Once in a while I hear outback call my name . Anyway , I like to it's better to do a little than nothing and it requires very little sacrifice .
I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to live , but I don't think there can be no harm in thinking about the suffering your actions cause . I think it's possible to be a meat eater and not be callous about what it is you are doing . Important even . |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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We all have limitations and varying capacities for changing our behavior.
I think that most people try to do about the best they can, and they get credit for even meditating on relieving the suffering of others (including animals) who are less fortunate. |
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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Is Vegetarianism a Religion? |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
The reason I ask is that I've known a few - a minority among the many, to be sure - who sometimes behave as though they feel what can only be called disdain toward people who don't share the same opinions as they do about which living creatures ought to be eaten. In fact, it's often as though they just don't feel they can be comfortable around people who don't "believe" the same thing they do.
And I put that word in quotes for a reason. Opinions are a lot like religious faith. You can marshall facts and history and documents to help convince you and others, but in the end it's often a very personal matter. Most of things we refer to as opinions are not things that can be proved scientifically to everyone's satisfaction. Because of that, people are going to disagree.
And that's cool. It's cool to disagree, as long as we don't demonize the other person whose beliefs are different, which is something that happens with a lot of religions, of course. When it does happen between religions, though, many times some really bad stuff happens. You know, planes flying into skyscrapers, crusades that last a century or more, genocide and death camps. That kind of thing... |
I agree that Militant vegetarianism almost seems like a religion, only because I've seen people online and offline who proselytize and are very arrogant in their treatment to others who don't hold their views. BUT I think that those kinds of people, while they exist, are few and far between. I don't have to say any names here, you know who I'm talking about. Also, several years ago, I modded on another site, and there was an incredible battle going on that was very similar to what you've recently experienced with that person. I wasn't involved at all in the online war, but I was asked to review some PM's that were supposed to incriminate (for a banning) one of the vegitarians - lets call her vegetarian B. when I went through her Pm's, I saw some pretty rude and harsh things that she was saying about another poster to one of her friends (vegitarian A)
It was pretty sad to see someone that held such strong beliefs in their "religion" basically put down and ridicule another poster simply because he disagreed with her. Then she went on to ridicule the entire group of people that argued (even the ones that didn't argue with her, but just politely stated their opinions about vegetarianism) and make them out to be complete idiots...she was doing exactly what you said (that I bolded in your words above).
We ended up banning her from the site. Some people just can't get along. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Is Vegetarianism a Religion? |
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| SuperFly wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
The reason I ask is that I've known a few - a minority among the many, to be sure - who sometimes behave as though they feel what can only be called disdain toward people who don't share the same opinions as they do about which living creatures ought to be eaten. In fact, it's often as though they just don't feel they can be comfortable around people who don't "believe" the same thing they do.
And I put that word in quotes for a reason. Opinions are a lot like religious faith. You can marshall facts and history and documents to help convince you and others, but in the end it's often a very personal matter. Most of things we refer to as opinions are not things that can be proved scientifically to everyone's satisfaction. Because of that, people are going to disagree.
And that's cool. It's cool to disagree, as long as we don't demonize the other person whose beliefs are different, which is something that happens with a lot of religions, of course. When it does happen between religions, though, many times some really bad stuff happens. You know, planes flying into skyscrapers, crusades that last a century or more, genocide and death camps. That kind of thing... |
I agree that Militant vegetarianism almost seems like a religion, only because I've seen people online and offline who proselytize and are very arrogant in their treatment to others who don't hold their views. BUT I think that those kinds of people, while they exist, are few and far between. I don't have to say any names here, you know who I'm talking about. Also, several years ago, I modded on another site, and there was an incredible battle going on that was very similar to what you've recently experienced with that person. I wasn't involved at all in the online war, but I was asked to review some PM's that were supposed to incriminate (for a banning) one of the vegitarians - lets call her vegetarian B. when I went through her Pm's, I saw some pretty rude and harsh things that she was saying about another poster to one of her friends (vegitarian A)
It was pretty sad to see someone that held such strong beliefs in their "religion" basically put down and ridicule another poster simply because he disagreed with her. Then she went on to ridicule the entire group of people that argued (even the ones that didn't argue with her, but just politely stated their opinions about vegetarianism) and make them out to be complete idiots...she was doing exactly what you said (that I bolded in your words above).
We ended up banning her from the site. Some people just can't get along. |
Mods can hack into private e-mails? Wow ...  |
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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: Re: Is Vegetarianism a Religion? |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| SuperFly wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
The reason I ask is that I've known a few - a minority among the many, to be sure - who sometimes behave as though they feel what can only be called disdain toward people who don't share the same opinions as they do about which living creatures ought to be eaten. In fact, it's often as though they just don't feel they can be comfortable around people who don't "believe" the same thing they do.
And I put that word in quotes for a reason. Opinions are a lot like religious faith. You can marshall facts and history and documents to help convince you and others, but in the end it's often a very personal matter. Most of things we refer to as opinions are not things that can be proved scientifically to everyone's satisfaction. Because of that, people are going to disagree.
And that's cool. It's cool to disagree, as long as we don't demonize the other person whose beliefs are different, which is something that happens with a lot of religions, of course. When it does happen between religions, though, many times some really bad stuff happens. You know, planes flying into skyscrapers, crusades that last a century or more, genocide and death camps. That kind of thing... |
I agree that Militant vegetarianism almost seems like a religion, only because I've seen people online and offline who proselytize and are very arrogant in their treatment to others who don't hold their views. BUT I think that those kinds of people, while they exist, are few and far between. I don't have to say any names here, you know who I'm talking about. Also, several years ago, I modded on another site, and there was an incredible battle going on that was very similar to what you've recently experienced with that person. I wasn't involved at all in the online war, but I was asked to review some PM's that were supposed to incriminate (for a banning) one of the vegitarians - lets call her vegetarian B. when I went through her Pm's, I saw some pretty rude and harsh things that she was saying about another poster to one of her friends (vegitarian A)
It was pretty sad to see someone that held such strong beliefs in their "religion" basically put down and ridicule another poster simply because he disagreed with her. Then she went on to ridicule the entire group of people that argued (even the ones that didn't argue with her, but just politely stated their opinions about vegetarianism) and make them out to be complete idiots...she was doing exactly what you said (that I bolded in your words above).
We ended up banning her from the site. Some people just can't get along. |
Mods can hack into private e-mails? Wow ... |
Pms |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Is Vegetarianism a Religion? |
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| SuperFly wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| SuperFly wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
The reason I ask is that I've known a few - a minority among the many, to be sure - who sometimes behave as though they feel what can only be called disdain toward people who don't share the same opinions as they do about which living creatures ought to be eaten. In fact, it's often as though they just don't feel they can be comfortable around people who don't "believe" the same thing they do.
And I put that word in quotes for a reason. Opinions are a lot like religious faith. You can marshall facts and history and documents to help convince you and others, but in the end it's often a very personal matter. Most of things we refer to as opinions are not things that can be proved scientifically to everyone's satisfaction. Because of that, people are going to disagree.
And that's cool. It's cool to disagree, as long as we don't demonize the other person whose beliefs are different, which is something that happens with a lot of religions, of course. When it does happen between religions, though, many times some really bad stuff happens. You know, planes flying into skyscrapers, crusades that last a century or more, genocide and death camps. That kind of thing... |
I agree that Militant vegetarianism almost seems like a religion, only because I've seen people online and offline who proselytize and are very arrogant in their treatment to others who don't hold their views. BUT I think that those kinds of people, while they exist, are few and far between. I don't have to say any names here, you know who I'm talking about. Also, several years ago, I modded on another site, and there was an incredible battle going on that was very similar to what you've recently experienced with that person. I wasn't involved at all in the online war, but I was asked to review some PM's that were supposed to incriminate (for a banning) one of the vegitarians - lets call her vegetarian B. when I went through her Pm's, I saw some pretty rude and harsh things that she was saying about another poster to one of her friends (vegitarian A)
It was pretty sad to see someone that held such strong beliefs in their "religion" basically put down and ridicule another poster simply because he disagreed with her. Then she went on to ridicule the entire group of people that argued (even the ones that didn't argue with her, but just politely stated their opinions about vegetarianism) and make them out to be complete idiots...she was doing exactly what you said (that I bolded in your words above).
We ended up banning her from the site. Some people just can't get along. |
Mods can hack into private e-mails? Wow ... |
Pms |
I guess they must have advanced technology at other sites. It's lovely to hear that, because a few years ago the mods here said there was no way to even verify the existence of an abusive PM (much less gossip about a third party).
I'm very curious about this parallel universe. Who were these nasty vegetarians and their poor innocent victims? |
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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Is Vegetarianism a Religion? |
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| Bramble wrote: |
I guess they must have advanced technology at other sites. It's lovely to hear that, because a few years ago the mods here said there was no way to even verify the existence of an abusive PM (much less gossip about a third party).. |
That's right, the mods here cannot read your pms. Other s/w allows admins to read pms, but not regular moderators, etc. It all depends on your level of permissions. Not rocket science there bramble. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| Omkara wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
Omkara
Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma." |
I think I will, and thanks for the recommendation. I've heard of it before, of course, though it's rather recently published, I believe. I'm not opposed to changing my mind, but it's MY mind and I'd prefer to do the work of refurbishing it myself rather than be coerced into it.
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Nothing at last is sacred but your mind. Amen, brother.
The problem with most people is that they won't use their mind. I think there is ethical meat eating. The point is to reason it through and come to a solid concusion--and, like you pointed out, wisdom is not opposed to a change of mind. |
I agree that there absolutely can be ethical meat-eating. However, there are other reasons to be vegetarian. Also, just because you can have ethical meat-eating, it doesn't mean that some people won't still choose to be vegetarian for ethical reasons. I mean, that works too.
I can respect meat eaters, and I can respect vegetarians. Why can't we just all get along? |
I respect conscious eating. The problem is that we think our food comes from the supermarket.
I wish it were so easy as just getting along. The eating paradigm is causing serious environmental problems.
If you can find the time, do watch "Diet for A New America" on YouTube. It gives a clear outline of some of these problems. I put a link in a former post.
I guess the "lets all get along" attitude makes for good company. But there are important times to take issue, when it can be effective and productive. I mean, it makes little sense, and is often stupid, to take the issue up with some people. Yet, there are intelligent people of some consequence. With these people, we should take up conversation.
Take for example smoking indoors in public places. Had Californians not taken issue with this and just gotten along, the health of California would be the worse and the economic impact of poor health is measurable in dollars and cents. . .
There is a good argument in "The Omnivore's Dilemma" which give clear illustration that the cheap price of industrially produced food has high hidden costs.
It's kind of like Wal-Mart paying it's employees so little that they have to burden the government for the benefits which Wal-Mart does not pay them--in order to keep costs low. Watch "The High Cost of Low Prices." It's probably on You Tube also.
Meat consumption (in the way we consume) has a lot of very high hidden costs. I mean, since beef alone consumes 20% of America's petrolium, there is the cost of moving the military. Then, we subsidize energy and water costs for them. Who pays?
I wish we could all get along, but my tax dollars and my environment are getting screwed up owing to unconscious eating.
Anyway, its a serious issue. Yeah, people can get fanatic about the issue. But that should not stop us from looking seriously at it. If we get along in this way, then we're the better for it. But if getting along means ignoring the issue, getting along isn't they way. |
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