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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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1967 is a perfect example of why so many wars start: imperfect information.
Nasser just claimed he blocked the gulf. In reality Egypt didn't do it. I guess sometimes words are stronger than actions. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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mithradates;
In wars bad things happen. You play around with the bull and you get the horn.
What about the Embassy hostage holding by Iran. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
mithradates;
1 In wars bad things happen. 2 You play around with the bull and you get the horn.
3 What about the Embassy hostage holding by Iran. |
1) War? What war? Iran and the United States fighting a war against each other in 1988?
2) Is flying a civilian aircraft in domestic airspace playing "with the bull"?
3) What about it? Are you saying that because hostages were taken the destruction of a civilian aircraft is, what, "fair game"? 290 People were killed. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| [Well the problem is, we have very different 'facts.' If you look closely, you'll find it's generally Israel that starts the wars, for one. . |
Let's indeed look closely.
1948-1949 war.
Started by the Arabs.
1956. This was provoked by the nationalization of the Suez Canal. Britain and France backed Israel on this one BTW.
But let's give this one to the Israelis.
1967. Nasser mobilized forces and closed the Gulf of Aquaba to Israel which sparked the war.
Started by the Arabs.
1973-1974.
Started by the Arabs
1982.
Started by the Israelis but it was merely the ending to a number of raids and reprisals that all began with a 1978 raid by the Arabs.
But even though it all started with the terrorist attack in 1978 let's give it to the Israelis.
Score 3 for the Arabs, 2 for Israel
Also keep in mind if the Arabs had accepted Israel from the beginning the entire area would have been a LOT better off. THEY were the ones that started the whole ball of wax rolling in the beginning. |
Your 'score' can be greatly disputed, and I could spend a day addressing just your last paragraph alone. But I'm trying hard to stick to a recent vow of not being drawn into this particular topic of discussion. I just haven't got the time anymore. 'Me time' is a rare and precious luxury these days. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I know that for those of you who are firmly entrenched in the Pro-Occupation camp that Finkelstein is a self-loathing Jew and all that, and therefore not trustworthy etc.
But in case there is anybody out there with an open mind who is interested in reading more about the Oslo Talks - from sources that have not been carefully vetted by Joo! hehehe - here is an article that might be of interest. Quite long though...
"Distorting Camp David" |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| War? What war? Iran and the United States fighting a war against each other in 1988? |
The United States and Iran existed in a de facto state of war at this point in the Iran-Iraq War; they were firing on each other's forces, probing, skrimishing. So yeah, there are wars and there are wars.
Further, the shootdown was an accident; neither the embassy seizure nor Beirut were. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| War? What war? Iran and the United States fighting a war against each other in 1988? |
The United States and Iran existed in a de facto state of war at this point in the Iran-Iraq War; they were firing on each other's forces, probing, skrimishing. So yeah, there are wars and there are wars.
Further, the shootdown was an accident. |
Yes, it was an accident. My response was to contrarian and his suggestion that it wasn't a tragedy because of the hostage taking. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Big Bird pits Ross against Finklestein and chooses Finklestein. Ho Humm!
Ross was right, the victim mentality and sense of entitlement of the Palestinians is one of the roots of the whole problem.
Does the US favor Israel? Obviously it does. It has more in common with Israel, can understand them. Every time the Us gets close to understanding the problem, the Palestinians try the "poor us" routine again and moves the goalpost.
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I see, peel.
It was an accident and a tragedy. Like so many Middle-Eastern incidents and events, all that most care and hear about is the one-sided "the United States killed Iranians!" with no context whatsoever.
Here is a little background on this incident, by the way...
| Stephen E. Ambrose and Douglas G. Brinkley wrote: |
...Another threat to worldwide stability was the continuing Iran-Iraq war. In 1984 the two sides began to attack oil tankers in the Persian Gulf with modern missiles...the United States watched helplessly as Iraq and Iran disrupted the oil flow. In 1987, an American ship, U.S.S. Stark, was hit by a French-made Exocet missile fired by an Iraqi plane. Iraq apologized and paid damages; Reagan's critics asked why the United States had a warship in a war zone without a specific task in the first place...
The Iran-Iraq war...had become...the third-largest and most expensive war of [the twentieth century], with no end in sight. Reagan continued to sell arms to Iran [for hostages and to establish goodwill in order to repair U.S.-Iranian relations], whose leaders tantalized him with promises, as they provided [Lt. Col. Oliver] North with millions of dollars in profits, a part of which was [improperly] used to fund the Contras...
[By the late-1980s, Reagan] had not improved U.S. relations with Iran, and he had abandoned neutrality in the Iran-Iraq war when he chose to protect Kuwait's oil tankers...
In the spring of 1987, Reagan...sent U.S. Navy warships into the Persian Gulf to protect tankers from Kuwait [bound for Japan] that had been reflagged with American colors. The tankers...were threatened by missiles made in France and China, fired by Iranians and Iraqis. On May 17, the U.S.S. Stark was hit by two missiles fired by Iraqi jet fighters; thirty-seven sailors were killed. Reagan responded by sending minesweepers and helicopters to the Gulf; in October, after Iranian missiles had hit tankers flying the U.S. flag, U.S. navy destroyers shelled Iranian offshore oil platforms...
The war escalated...in April 1988, an American frigate was damaged by a mine. The navy destroyed two Iranian oil rigs in retaliation and damaged or sank six Iranian vessels. As more mines were laid and more tankers came under missile fire, Reagan ordered U.S. forces to extend protection to all neutral vessels.
On July 3, the U.S.S. Vincennes mistakenly shot down an Iranian passenger jet, killing all 290 passengers and crew. Reagan called the incident "tragic" but said "it appears that it was a proper defensive action." Later he sent a message of "deep regret" to Iran and compensated the families of the victims. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Big Bird pits Ross against Finklestein and chooses Finklestein. Ho Humm!
Ross was right, the victim mentality and sense of entitlement of the Palestinians is one of the roots of the whole problem.
Does the US favor Israel? Obviously it does. It has more in common with Israel, can understand them. Every time the Us gets close to understanding the problem, the Palestinians try the "poor us" routine again and moves the goalpost.
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Haha, you didn't even bother to read it did you contrarian? Too emotionally attached to your position and all that, eh? 
I honestly don't know how anyone with an average sense of justice could possibly agree with Ross. His extraordinarily biased and subjective account is not even worth my time attaching an adjective to!  No Big_Bird, don't start... go and put the dinner on!!!! |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I know that for those of you who are firmly entrenched in the Pro-Occupation camp that Finkelstein is a self-loathing Jew and all that, and therefore not trustworthy etc.
But in case there is anybody out there with an open mind who is interested in reading more about the Oslo Talks - from sources that have not been carefully vetted by Joo! hehehe - here is an article that might be of interest. Quite long though...
"Distorting Camp David" |
Camp David does not equal Bill Clintons' offer. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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what is your point?
It was an accident and the US paid compensation?
Has Iran ever paid compensation for their intentional acts of terror. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| contrarian wrote: |
mithradates;
1 In wars bad things happen. 2 You play around with the bull and you get the horn.
3 What about the Embassy hostage holding by Iran. |
1) War? What war? Iran and the United States fighting a war against each other in 1988?
2) Is flying a civilian aircraft in domestic airspace playing "with the bull"?
3) What about it? Are you saying that because hostages were taken the destruction of a civilian aircraft is, what, "fair game"? 290 People were killed. |
| Quote: |
Shipment of high explosives intercepted in Iraq
Most sophisticated of roadside bombs reportedly coming from Iran |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8829929/
9/11 Commission Finds Ties Between al-Qaeda and Iran
| Quote: |
| Senior U.S. officials have told TIME that the 9/11 Commission's report will cite evidence suggesting that the 9/11 hijackers had previously passed through Iran |
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,664967,00.html
| Quote: |
| The American military said Tuesday that it had credible evidence linking Iranians and their Iraqi associates, detained here in raids last week, to criminal activities, including attacks against American forces. Evidence also emerged that some detainees had been involved in shipments of weapons to illegal armed groups in Iraq. |
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F0061EF635550C748EDDAB0994DE404482
| Quote: |
| On June 25, 1996, Iran again attacked America at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, exploding a huge truck bomb that devastated Khobar Towers and murdered 19 U.S. airmen as they rested in their dormitory. These young heroes spent every day risking their lives enforcing the no-fly zone over southern Iraq; that is, protecting Iraqi Shiites from their own murderous tyrant. When I visited this horrific scene soon after the attack, I watched dozens of dedicated FBI agents combing through the wreckage in 120-degree heat, reverently handling the human remains of our brave young men. More than 400 of our Air Force men and women were wounded in this well-planned attack, and I was humbled by their courage and spirit. I later met with the families of our lost Khobar heroes and promised that we would do whatever was necessary to bring these terrorists to American justice. The courage and dignity these wonderful families have consistently exemplified has been one of the most powerful experiences of my 26 years of public service. |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003518
Quote:
Iran responsible for 1983 Marine barracks bombing, judge rules
Friday, May 30, 2003 Posted: 11:14 PM EDT (0314 GMT)
Marines search through the rubble for their missing comrades after the 1983 barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon.
| Quote: |
| WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Iran is responsible for the 1983 suicide bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen, a U.S. District Court judge ruled Friday. |
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/
Amir Taheri: Khomeinists hammering new strategy to oust 'Great Satan'
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But at almost exactly the same time, militants from some 40 countries spread across the globe were trekking to Tehran for a 10-day "revolutionary jamboree" in which "a new strategy to confront the American Great Satan" will be hammered out. The event is scheduled to start on February 1 to mark the 25th anniversary of the return to Iran from exile of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the "Islamic Revolution".
It is not clear how many militants will attend, but the official media promise a massive turnout to underline the Islamic Republic's position as the "throbbing heart of world resistance to American arrogance."
The guest list reads like a who-is-who of global terror.
In fact, most of the organisations attending the event, labelled "Ten-Days of Dawn", are branded by the US and some European Union members as terrorist outfits. For more than two decades, Tehran has been a magnet for militant groups from many different national and ideological backgrounds.
The Islamic Republic's hospitality cuts across even religious divides. Militant Sunni organisations, including two linked to Al Qaida, Ansar al-Islam (Companions of Islam) and Hizb Islami (The Islamic Party), enjoy Iranian hospitality.
They are joined by Latin American guerrilla outfits, clandestine Irish organisations, Basque and Corsican separatists, and a variety of leftist groups from Spartacists to Trotskyites and Guevarists. Tehran is the only capital where all the Palestinian militant movements have offices and, in some cases, training and financial facilities. |
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/04/01/28/109235.html
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U.S.: Top Iran officials ordering bombs to Iraq
Orders to send armor-piercing bombs came from highest levels, official says |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17097658/
Iran also supports Hizzbollah who taught Al Qaeda how to do bombings
And who sells drugs and counterfeits US money.
Iran also is behind offensive acts like killing the translators of the Satanic Verses and blowing up Jewish community center's in Argentina |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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But of course BigBird decides that Israel and America are bad, very bad. Then she finds that the murderousm barbaric Palestinian leadership and Khomeni's Iran are good, very good.
My empathy for the Palestinans is for their almost insane desire to drive the Jews into the sea, and wonder at how such a venal leadership can so long abuse them. |
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