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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Bob, while you're claiming that vegetarians are arrogant for not wanting to cook meat for omnivorous guests, I think you're overlooking one important thing.
Lots of us haven't eaten meat in several years, if ever. I know that I wouldn't trust myself to do anything more complicated with meat than brown some ground beef (which I have been known to do when making spaghetti for a mixed group).
It seems to me that offering to go to a restaurant rather than cook meat is an act of humility and consideration, on my part. Partly because I'd have no clue whether the food would taste good, and I'm disinclined to test it to find out, but also because I'm a little clueless about when meat is cooked enough, and would hate to risk making my friends ill. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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 We could send all the meat-eaters to "peppermint's" house for dinner - after getting sick (or dying) they may give up their meat-eating ways...  |
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Darashii
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| *squirts juice from nose* Now he wants to poison omnivores! RT, you're somethin else. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
Bob, while you're claiming that vegetarians are arrogant for not wanting to cook meat for omnivorous guests, I think you're overlooking one important thing.
Lots of us haven't eaten meat in several years, if ever. I know that I wouldn't trust myself to do anything more complicated with meat than brown some ground beef (which I have been known to do when making spaghetti for a mixed group).
It seems to me that offering to go to a restaurant rather than cook meat is an act of humility and consideration, on my part. Partly because I'd have no clue whether the food would taste good, and I'm disinclined to test it to find out, but also because I'm a little clueless about when meat is cooked enough, and would hate to risk making my friends ill. |
Nice try, but you are moving the goalposts, you know. The idea is courtesy, not precision or professional achevement in the kitchen. And, yes, your first sentence is correct, with emphasis on WANTING - I am realistic enough to know that quite possibly another vegetarian might cook a vegetarian recipe better than I might do, simply because they'd have a bitmore experience and since they'd like the food better than they would probably do a better job of it.
The point is, though, I would TRY to make my guest happy by serving the food he or she likes, if only as a gesture. We both know that the most likely reason my vegetarian friend will not reciprocate is not humility at not being able to cook a hot dog, but rather politics, and the firm conviction that his/her opinions on "supporting the meat industry" constitute a reality beyond the level of mere opinion ... we both understand that because we both know what is true.
Let's not kid each other. Though they vary as individuals - obviously, this is not a blanket statement for every person - most vegetarians DO feel they are living a more ethical life than their omnivorous friends. This opinion, which we have seen referred to in this discussion as political while using religion as a justification, is strong enough for many vegetarians that they are unwilling to see when they are choosing to ignore courtesy to people who have shown kindness to them.
And discussion of whether a vegetarian is qualified to cook meat ignores some other things said on this thread, where at least two such people have indicated that they prefer meat not be brought into their house at all. If I bring a bologna sandwich or a Big Mac over to my vegetarian firend's house and eat it while we watch a rented DVD together, is he/she supporting the "meat industry? I don't see it. It's not there.
We are closer to the mark in our discussion of religious values - and I remain confused how I am to be asked to treat vegetarianis as a religion when in fact it is not one. Still, for some of those who adhere to the veggie lifestyle it would seem that animal flesh DOES contain the taint of sin (as a Protestant would say) or is not Kosher (as a Hassidic would say) or is harum (as a muslim would say).
It appears that at least some vegetarians feels so strongly about their religion-that-is-not-a-religion that they can justify the courtesies that flow from it ... because, you see, they are living an ethical life and the rest of us are not.
An ethical life - that is, one that includes showing your friends less kindness and courtesy than they show you. Okay ...
Actually, I'm having more and more respect for RTeacher as this discussion goes on because even that the risk of being called arrogant, I suspect he would tell me directly to my face that he DOES feel he is living a more ethical life than I am by not eating meat, and that his opinion is better than mine, and that furthermore he IS making the world a little better by forbidding me to bring that bucket of KFC over to his house.
But then, he's got God on his side ... |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
The point is, though, I would TRY to make my guest happy by serving the food he or she likes, if only as a gesture. We both know that the most likely reason my vegetarian friend will not reciprocate is not humility at not being able to cook a hot dog, but rather politics, and the firm conviction that his/her opinions on "supporting the meat industry" constitute a reality beyond the level of mere opinion ... we both understand that because we both know what is true.
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What I make for my guests is much nicer than hot dogs. If I *must* cook meat (and I do, under certain circumstances, as I've said) it's going to be Chicken A La King or salmon steaks.
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Let's not kid each other. Though they vary as individuals - obviously, this is not a blanket statement for every person - most vegetarians DO feel they are living a more ethical life than their omnivorous friends. This opinion, which we have seen referred to in this discussion as political while using religion as a justification, is strong enough for many vegetarians that they are unwilling to see when they are choosing to ignore courtesy to people who have shown kindness to them.
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It's hard to argue that vegetarianism *isn't* more ethical, merely for environmental reasons. We choose to eat has one of the biggest impacts on the environment, including the climate, of any human activity.
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And discussion of whether a vegetarian is qualified to cook meat ignores some other things said on this thread, where at least two such people have indicated that they prefer meat not be brought into their house at all. If I bring a bologna sandwich or a Big Mac over to my vegetarian firend's house and eat it while we watch a rented DVD together, is he/she supporting the "meat industry? I don't see it. It's not there.
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My buddies brought McDonald's over to my place last month. They didn't know that beautiful food would be provided at the party. I didn't complain. It's their loss, as the only thing it cost me was the unpleasant smell. Nobody has argued that bringing meat over would be "supporting the meat industry." As you said, "it's not there."
By the way, you made this comment earlier and it annoyed me:
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| Seven people are wandering around Hongdae looking for a galbi bbq place, a veggie acquaintance shows up with a couple of her firernds and suddenly the venue gets changed to pasta in the blink of an eye ... |
Perhaps you are referring to a goodbye party for a girl you previously insisted was a vegetarian. Folks were going to a galbi restaurant, where the options for 30% of us would be very limited. We switched to a Mexican restaurant where meat was available (a place the good-bye girl loved.) What's your beef with this?
Actually, I object to a few things you've written on this thread but didn't feel like replying until they started piling up again:
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| The meat-eating friend is being kind and gracious towards you by succumbing to your desires without complaint. He will thank you for sharing food with him but he will not go home and rave about it to his friends. |
Feel free to start a poll on this one, but LOTS of people voluntarily eat meat-free meals and enjoy them. Contrary to what you believe, people who eat at my place do in fact tell their friends how good it is. Many cultures have a place for food that's non-meat. It's pretty Anglo to believe that a meal has to be "meat and two veg."
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But in the end, being vegetarian is a whole lot about feeling like a you are a good person - in other words, it's a kind of selfishness that masks itself as a virtue, and provides an "excuse" so that one can feel better than other people, even while behaving worse. |
This is either
a) mind-reading
b) the result of extensive anonymous polling
c) arrogant presumption |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously. I had a dinner party in my vegetarian kitchen a while back. One of the guests brought some pastries, including one that had a hot dog in the middle of it. I served them all, including the one with meat. Who said we wouldn't allow any meat at our place? You want to bring mcdonalds, that's fine if you're really so pro-meat. I would not appreciate the smell, but I wouldn't say anything as a host. But I won't COOK meat for you.
Back to the dinner party I was talking about... the woman who brought it brought it because one of the people there was a Meat Eater (with emphasis and capital letters and all). She told me on her way out that if I cooked food like that for her, she'd have no problem with being vegetarian, it was that good. My boss (who was nice at the time and was therefore invited, since it was people from work) asked for the recipes so that he could get his wife to cook him whatever I had just made. And he and my coworker who was very much a meat eater did have some of the meat, but I think next time they wouldn't bring any. Not because I wouldn't allow it, they know I would, but because what I cooked was just better, even without the meat.
FYI, my roommate orders food with meat all the time to our place. But she doesn't cook any meat in the kitchen (actually, she doesn't cook at all). And if that seems terribly restrictive to you, when we moved in, I asked her that if she were going to cook meat that she use her own knife and cutting board and label those.
Another coworker moved in a little while ago, and my non-vegetarian roommate asked her to not cook with meat. I said I agreed, but the request didn't even come from me! She asked because she didn't want the smell. Anyway, there are two kitchens, so the other girl is using the other one. You can form your own conclusions, and I won't say I'm not arrogant about ANYthing (I'm sure everyone is about something, at least a little, as you say), but I just don't see it here.
You want to talk about a restaurant outing? A bunch of Korean swing dancers were going out after swing for drinks and to eat. They invited me along, and then realized I was vegetarian and didn't drink any alcohol (before you start getting all uppity, I don't mind alcohol at my place, though I don't buy it because I have no idea what people would like and am afraid of picking out sh*t). So what happened? Did we go to a vegetarian pasta place? Of course not! I went along and I didn't eat any meat (or fish, or seafood) or drink any alcohol, but I chatted with my friends and had a great time. They did manage to order a really yummy salad at one place, which was nice, but I'd have gone along with them anyway, even if they didn't manage to order anything veggie at all. They also managed to order an egg thing at the second place, and though I'm not fond of eggs alone (I don't love the taste, but when it's hidden, like in baking, I don't mind), I ate some anyway and thanked them. At one of the places there wasn't anything vegetarian on the menu, but I didn't mind.
Yes, if you insist on having meat, you can have some in my house. I won't cook it for you, but you can have it. If you're not satisfied with that, I will think you aren't a very polite guest. |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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warning: goofiness ahead-
yesterday found me walking around downtown. the movie theater only had korean films. what to do?
found myself going into mcdonalds. first visit of the year. from the second i walked in the door the stench of the fat and the grease was overwhelming. did a quick look for a non-fried chicken sandwich and left. maybe it was only mental but the place smelled ...dirty, like a faint wisp of an overful greasetrap.
similarly, in homeplus... they always have the ladies cooking up free meat samples. i used to love nabbing a chunk o pork. now, i cannot stand the smell of pork. it is disgusting. now i walk a loop around that display area. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| mistermasan wrote: |
warning: goofiness ahead-
yesterday found me walking around downtown. the movie theater only had korean films. what to do?
found myself going into mcdonalds. first visit of the year. from the second i walked in the door the stench of the fat and the grease was overwhelming. did a quick look for a non-fried chicken sandwich and left. maybe it was only mental but the place smelled ...dirty, like a faint wisp of an overful greasetrap.
similarly, in homeplus... they always have the ladies cooking up free meat samples. i used to love nabbing a chunk o pork. now, i cannot stand the smell of pork. it is disgusting. now i walk a loop around that display area. |
Heretic! How could you badmouth The Meat like that! Don't you know The Meat is a holy sacrament and it is only through The Meat that we are redeemed and purged of arrogance? |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Kermo, shall we set up an altar to worship The Meat? Maybe we can be Saved. |
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Mi Yum mi
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| A veggie? You should be shot. Then eaten. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| What I make for my guests is much nicer than hot dogs. If I *must* cook meat (and I do, under certain circumstances, as I've said) it's going to be Chicken A La King or salmon steaks. |
Nothing arrogant about your disdain for the lowly tube steak, is there? Um, you DID understand that the hot dog example was used because it is easy to boil them in a pot and so even someone like peppermint could do it ... you got that, right?
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It's hard to argue that vegetarianism *isn't* more ethical, merely for environmental reasons. We choose to eat has one of the biggest impacts on the environment, including the climate, of any human activity.
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It's still in the realm of opinion, though, things about which reasonable people can disagree. And this environmental tack is a new direction for you, removed somewhat from your earlier talk about death and pain. In any case, yes, the argument CAN be made that vegetarianism is not more ethical, and such arguments HAVE been made.
And, I'm sorry, but the smugness just drips like maple syrup from every line of that passage, and once again you are doing my job for me by congratulating yourself in public for making a personal and political decision that results in you feeling better about yourself. The arrogance exists because you do not allow for the possibility that other people, with opinions, just might have valid reasons for their behavior.
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| My buddies brought McDonald's over to my place last month. They didn't know that beautiful food would be provided at the party. I didn't complain. It's their loss, as the only thing it cost me was the unpleasant smell. |
Nothing arrogant in this passage either, especially the part about "beautiful food ... move along, folks, nothing interesting to see here.
Honestly, I can't believe how you can fail to see how self-righteous and self-satisfied and goshdarn proud of yourself you appear. kermo, you are NOT better than people who like a Big Mac from time to time, but you sure do work hard to come off sounding like you think so.
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But in the end, being vegetarian is a whole lot about feeling like a you are a good person - in other words, it's a kind of selfishness that masks itself as a virtue, and provides an "excuse" so that one can feel better than other people, even while behaving worse.
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This is either
a) mind-reading
b) the result of extensive anonymous polling
c) arrogant presumption |
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a) Your posts quoted illustrate that you believe you are a better person because you don't eat meat. ("It's hard to argue that vegetarianism *isn't* more ethical," and "the only thing it cost me was the unpleasant smell." )
b) Polling data is hardly necessary with your posts displaying it so very well.
c) I'll cop to being arrogant (though you've only said the word, not shown it) and I've already admitted as much on this thread already, but I'm not presuming anything because I don't need to. If you want to deny that you feel you are better than other people because you don't eat meat, I really doubt it will seem credible, especially after the "beautiful food" jazz ... but, hey, go for it, why not.
littlelisa
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They also managed to order an egg thing at the second place, and though I'm not fond of eggs alone (I don't love the taste, but when it's hidden, like in baking, I don't mind), I ate some anyway and thanked them. |
I don't want to step on kermo's toes here - she seems to be able to decide who is and who is not a vegetarian, despite how people describe themselves - but lisa, seriously, and I have to say this gently : You are not a vegetarian if you eat eggs. I don't want to make you sad, but sometime, somewhere, someone was going to tell you, and I wanted to do it as gently as possible.
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| At one of the places there wasn't anything vegetarian on the menu, but I didn't mind. |
Most Korean places WILL at least try fix food you like if you ask them, whether it's on the menu or not. It's because, even in big cities, there are at least some vegetarian Buddhists. Did you ask? Have you tried using those phrases I gave you on that other thread?
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| And if that seems terribly restrictive to you, when we moved in, I asked her that if she were going to cook meat that she use her own knife and cutting board and label those. |
I wouldn't use the word restrictive, no. I think it's more accurately described as pathology. See, there's this invention called soap, and there's also hot water, and when they are used in conjunction with each other they will remove ACTUAL poisons and ACTUAL germs and bacteria, and definitely, yes, any residue from having once been touched by meat.
Sadly, soap and water does not remove the taint of murder that exists in the mind, and the moral stain of the abattoir ... you might need an exorcist for that.
Seriously, what you are describing are the thought processes of superstition - irrational, unscientific, borderline-hysteria. It's not even on the level of personal taste or preference anymore, but rather just magical thinking.
And, as I said before, I really AM trying to be gentle, here. Others would dispaly far, far more scorn that what you are seeing from The Bobster. Maybe something like the kind of scorn from people jeering about the altar of meat ...  |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| What I make for my guests is much nicer than hot dogs. If I *must* cook meat (and I do, under certain circumstances, as I've said) it's going to be Chicken A La King or salmon steaks. |
Nothing arrogant about your disdain for the lowly tube steak, is there? Um, you DID understand that the hot dog example was used because it is easy to boil them in a pot and so even someone like peppermint could do it ... you got that, right?
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Let me be clear here. I'm a very capable cook, that's never bothered to learn what to do with meat. According to my parents, I make fantastic shepherds pies with leftover roast, and I don't mind separating some chili or spaghetti sauce into another pot, and allowing friends to add ground beef or more spice or whatever. Anything beyond that, I have no real incentive to learn right now
If a friend is silly enough to want a boiled hot dog, instead of the veggie pot pie with mushroom gravy and pastry crust, or pizza I made from scratch, etc that I made, then I think it much kinder to suggest going to a restaurant, where they can get a real meal instead of some token meat product, while everyone else has a feast
Last edited by peppermint on Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| What I make for my guests is much nicer than hot dogs. |
Let me apologize beforehand and say that you could be an exception and that everything you make could be incredible.
While I'm no great fan of hot dogs they are more appealing to me than the vegetarian food my old roommate made, better than a lot of the stuff my sister made when she went through her vegetarian phase, and better than most of the stuff I had at 풀향기 (where we had to go with my old roommate a time or two because at that time he wouldn't go to meat restaurants). |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I eat egg, and still say I'm vegetarian because it's the easiest and fastest way to describe it to my friends. Also, if you want to be picky, it still is being vegetarian. A lacto-ovo vegetarian eats eggs.
Quote from wikipedia:
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A lacto-ovo vegetarian is a vegetarian who does not eat beef, pork, poultry, fish, shellfish or animal flesh of any kind, but is willing to consume cheese, butter, yogurt and eggs. Lacto- means "milk" and ovo- means "egg".
In the Western world lacto-ovo vegetarians are the most common type of vegetarian. Generally speaking, when one uses the term vegetarian a lacto-ovo vegetarian is assumed. Lacto-ovo vegetarians are often well-catered to in restaurants and shops, especially in Europe and metropolitan cities in North America. |
But thanks for the arrogant presumption in telling me what labels fit me and which don't. You'd think this is the sort of thing you could decide for yourself...
| The Bobster wrote: |
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| At one of the places there wasn't anything vegetarian on the menu, but I didn't mind. |
Most Korean places WILL at least try fix food you like if you ask them, whether it's on the menu or not. It's because, even in big cities, there are at least some vegetarian Buddhists. Did you ask? Have you tried using those phrases I gave you on that other thread? |
Umm.. I was with my KOREAN friends. They did all the ordering. Sorry I used the word menu. They did actually have a discussion with the waiters and ask about vegetarian things.
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| And if that seems terribly restrictive to you, when we moved in, I asked her that if she were going to cook meat that she use her own knife and cutting board and label those. |
I wouldn't use the word restrictive, no. I think it's more accurately described as pathology. See, there's this invention called soap, and there's also hot water, and when they are used in conjunction with each other they will remove ACTUAL poisons and ACTUAL germs and bacteria, and definitely, yes, any residue from having once been touched by meat.
Sadly, soap and water does not remove the taint of murder that exists in the mind, and the moral stain of the abattoir ... you might need an exorcist for that.
Seriously, what you are describing are the thought processes of superstition - irrational, unscientific, borderline-hysteria. It's not even on the level of personal taste or preference anymore, but rather just magical thinking.
And, as I said before, I really AM trying to be gentle, here. Others would dispaly far, far more scorn that what you are seeing from The Bobster. Maybe something like the kind of scorn from people jeering about the altar of meat ... |
Yes, there is soap and water. However, when I moved in there were no less than THREE cutting boards and FOUR sharp knives. My suggestion was easy, and would be easy on me. I don't wash my cutting boards after every single use. Often people only rinse off their cutting boards, or don't clean them super well. When you have the kind whose surface is not totally flat, but a little bumpy, they can also be difficult to clean well. Easier to just have a separate one for meat.
Irrational, unscientific, borderline-hysteria? I don't think so. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| What I make for my guests is much nicer than hot dogs. If I *must* cook meat (and I do, under certain circumstances, as I've said) it's going to be Chicken A La King or salmon steaks. |
Nothing arrogant about your disdain for the lowly tube steak, is there? Um, you DID understand that the hot dog example was used because it is easy to boil them in a pot and so even someone like peppermint could do it ... you got that, right?
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Let me be clear here. I'm a very capable cook, that's never bothered to learn what to do with meat. According to my parents, I make fantastic shepherds pies with leftover roast, and I don't mind separating some chili or spaghetti sauce into another pot, and allowing friends to add ground beef or more spice or whatever. Anything beyond that, I have no real incentive to learn right now
If a friend is silly enough to want a boiled hot dog, instead of the veggie pot pie with mushroom gravy and pastry crust, or pizza I made from scratch, etc that I made, then I think it much kinder to suggest going to a restaurant, where they can get a real meal instead of some token meat product, while everyone else has a feast |
Absolutely reasonable, and I agree with you. If they prefer a hot dog to the meals I make, we would be better to go to a restaurant where we can both have something we like. They get something better than a hot dog, that way. |
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