|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
 |
|
nightsky:
yes, saw that today. thanks for the negative reinforcement...or operant conditioning? psych 101 was many decades ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Read closely, Bobster. I said I didn't want to eat meat , but I definitely thought it was delicious. It wasn't a question of taste-- it was a reaction to the source of the taste. I also described some other unethical things I really like but haven't been willing to give up, like chocolate and Coke. That would make me "not better than other people." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plume D'ella Plumeria
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Location: The Lost Horizon
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kermo, I got your PM and will get back to you on that in a few days ... maybe.
As for Bob, yes he IS fighting and who cares? It would probably be better to let the thread die a natural death. No one is going to convince another. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. So there it is ...
Kermo, I get that you are a moral and ethical person. So is my meat-eating self. Can we have peace? Not that we were ever fighting, really.
Peace and broccoli to you.
The Plumester |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nobody is TRYING to convince anyone else. I am not trying to convince anyone else to be vegetarian here. I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone. I agree with Kermo that I am not better than any meat eater. I feel that Bobster is putting words in my mouth that don't belong there, though, and was trying to explain that he's assuming a lot here. I don't think i'm on a higher ethical plane than others on the basis of (non) meat eating.
And yeah, everyone is arrogant about some things, at least a little. I just don't think I'm being arrogant about being a vegetarian. If Bobster finds that I am rude to my friends, he can keep his opinion. My friends don't think I am rude at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| littlelisa wrote: |
| I don't think i'm on a higher ethical plane than others on the basis of (non) meat eating. |
So ... compassion for other living creatures is NOT part of the motivation at all? If this is the case, what is the motivation for vegetarianism? I rather thought that for most, it IS a wish for a more ethical life, a wish to avoid adding to the sum total of death and pain that exists in the world, and I'm thinking I could go back to several posts here and there that indicate precisely that.
If you are not trying to behave more ethically than if you ate meat, then WHAT is the purpose? And if you are trying to live more ethically, how can you say you are not trying for a higher ethical plane?
Plume D'ella Plumeria
| Quote: |
| As for Bob, yes he IS fighting |
I don't believe I am. I do sort of feel I've been harried and pursued, and occasionally attacked, though I'm not complaining as I've certainly had worse from time to time - my intent here was always and only to express an opinion and have a conversation.
Some people have objected to the word "arrogance," which I first used many pages ago solely in the context of how people relate between cultures, and it's very interesting to me that, 8 pages later NO ONE has thought that worthy of a remark or even cursory examination, though of course it's a topic of paramount relevance to people such as ourselves who have chosen to live in a cultural millieu different from our own - but rather the choice has been instead to focus on the far, far more trivial scenario of how vegetarians relate to their friends and family. And, so far, I've failed in being find myself convinced that a non-reciprocal friendship represents anything else than arrogance on the part of one person in the situation, and acquiescence on the part of the other ... And I really don't think it's because I've failed to listen, just that persuasion has been lacking.
Well, that's cool. What's not cool is that in the meantime the discussion has generated far too much heat to be useful to anyone.
Like littlelisa, I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their habits in any way - and if anyone can point to a place where I've indicated any such desire, I'd be very grateful - but what has surprised me the most the last week or so was a back-of-the-mind sort of impression I'd gleaned that some people would be more comfortable if I'd just shut up about the whole thing.
Not that way inclined, I'm afraid. It's a topic of interest to me for a lot of reasons, and if people want to toss the odd bit of anger of a snide remark my way, so be it.
I haven't put words in anyone's mouth, by the way - I'm very well-versed in the quote function here and if you have a specific complaint about something I've said, it likely comes from other source ... like, for instance, you just aren't as happy about what you said as you were when you originally said it. Generally, I think people toss that accusation about when perhaps they don't realize the full implications of what they are saying, or that others might interpret their words in ways they themselves didn't fully understand, but which are valid interpretations nevertheless..
The Bobster loves everyone, you know, even though some people make him a little nervous ... hope your days are full of smiles. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| I don't think i'm on a higher ethical plane than others on the basis of (non) meat eating. |
So ... compassion for other living creatures is NOT part of the motivation at all? If this is the case, what is the motivation for vegetarianism? I rather thought that for most, it IS a wish for a more ethical life, a wish to avoid adding to the sum total of death and pain that exists in the world, and I'm thinking I could go back to several posts here and there that indicate precisely that.
If you are not trying to behave more ethically than if you ate meat, then WHAT is the purpose? And if you are trying to live more ethically, how can you say you are not trying for a higher ethical plane? |
No, compassion to living creatures is NOT part of the motivation. There are things about the meat industry I don't like, but principally, the reasons why are the taste of meat (which I dislike) and the smell of meat (which I dislike). Kind of the same reason why I don't drink alcohol. I'm not ethically against bad treatment of grapes or anything, I just don't like it. I don't mind people drinking in my house, just as I don't mind others eating meat in my house, but I don't cook with alcohol, just as I don't cook with meat.
The only difference is that I would not mind cooking with alcohol for others as much because I personally find raw meat gross, a little. I have a friend who loved the taste of meat and had no problems eating it, but found raw meat gross and wouldn't ever cook with it. I have a twinge of that. (Anyway, that's all just theoretical. I don't ever cook with alcohol either)
As I said, I think there absolutely can be ethical meat-eating. Although some of their practices (like the way they treat workers at meat-processing plants, for example) can be awful, if I really liked meat, I would probably still eat it, or might just be more choosy about where I bought my meat if I wanted to be super ethical about it, or would try to do something to change the practices that I disliked. But even if the meat industry was different, I would still be vegetarian, because that's not the reason why I don't eat meat. Even if you had cows like in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe who WANTED to be eaten and meat processing plants that treated their workers really well, I wouldn't eat any meat. I just really really don't like the taste or the smell. I will put up with the smell to hang around my friends, but I don't eat it.
Also, Kermo is arguing that you can be vegetarian for your own personal ethical reasons and not feel you are above others at the same time, which I can agree with.
Btw, I eat chocolate too, despite less than ideal practices in the chocolate industry. But then, I like chocolate. If I liked meat as much, I would probably eat meat too. I am only human.
But that's just speculation... I can't really imagine my liking meat.
So I don't cook with meat for meat-eating friends, because it's easier to either make them something they like that's vegetarian or take them out to a restaurant than to cook with meat which I find gross when raw and whose smell I don't like and whose taste is disgusting to me. Does that make more sense? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
I don't believe I am. I do sort of feel I've been harried and pursued, and occasionally attacked, though I'm not complaining as I've certainly had worse from time to time - my intent here was always and only to express an opinion and have a conversation.
And, so far, I've failed in being find myself convinced that a non-reciprocal friendship represents anything else than arrogance on the part of one person in the situation, and acquiescence on the part of the other ... And I really don't think it's because I've failed to listen, just that persuasion has been lacking.
|
That is a very heavy label to put on what amounts to a few missing ingredients. I like cheese, milk, eggs, and ice cream, and if a vegan doesn't serve me dairy, I'm not offended. I might actually miss the taste of "real" cheese or yogurt during that meal, but I know that the hosts are doing their best within the constraints of their conscience. I wouldn't want them to compromise their values on my behalf, or to do something that's revolting to them. That doesn't make the relationship altogerher non-reciprocal. Every person has a limit to what they are able to offer, and I wouldn't want to push a friend over that limit.
| Quote: |
| I haven't put words in anyone's mouth, by the way - I'm very well-versed in the quote function here and if you have a specific complaint about something I've said, it likely comes from other source ... like, for instance, you just aren't as happy about what you said as you were when you originally said it. Generally, I think people toss that accusation about when perhaps they don't realize the full implications of what they are saying, or that others might interpret their words in ways they themselves didn't fully understand, but which are valid interpretations nevertheless.. |
It's when you turn the "implications" and "interpretations" into "intentions" that we have a problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Still don't want to talk about vegetarianism as it relates to cultural arrogance, eh? Ah, well, another time, another place perhaps ...
Look, I'm going to be the best gentleman I know how to be and let you or anyone else have the last workd on this thread, because I really DO think I've done enough work to explain what I'm talking about. Since it is in the category of things we are unlikely to agree about, there's little more I need to do except speak my opinion and explain, which I have certainly done well enough by now ...
| kermo wrote: |
| That is a very heavy label to put on what amounts to a few missing ingredients. |
If you think it's not important, then I suppose that's your value system - a friendship that isn't based on equal regard hardly seems like friendship at all to me, and I doubt I'm unique in this.
If I were to invite you over to my house for dinner and serve you barbequed chicken, I suppose it wouldn't be very kind if I were to tell you, "Oh, come on, we always have vegetarian food when I come to visit you - you know how much I love chicken, so I know you wouldn't mind if we eat it together just this one time, right?"
If I did that, I'd be imposing my values on you and ignoring yours, and treating your desires as worthless next to my own. That would be arrogant of me.
| Quote: |
| It's when you turn the "implications" and "interpretations" into "intentions" that we have a problem. |
We can only make interpretations from observing actions, and we can only deduce intentions from the implication of words that are used. And there times when we use words without realizing all that they imply.
Well, there you go. I'm finished with this thread, though not with the topic - feel free to continue, and I'm sure I will read it, but there's not much point in responding unless someone has something mind-bogglingly new to say, because you have to admit, we're pretty much just repeating the same things to each other over and over, right?
Be happy, and enjoy your food, chew it slowly and enjoy every morsel of deliciousness, whatever it is you choose to eat. And smile. Life's more beautiful, that way.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
| Look, I'm going to be the best gentleman I know how to be and let you or anyone else have the last word on this thread, |
Now THAT I've gotta see. (especially after this post)
This thread is just all kinds of annoying, the vast majority of it intentional and coming from Mr. Bob. And as usual, all the targets are chicks with the exception of VedicTeacher.
BTW, Bob, since you're such a keen stickler for reciprocity amongst friends (I personally don't keep a running tally of who's served what to whom and how many times, but to each his own) and since you count Kermo as a friend, does that mean Kermo is also free to antagonise, insult and berate you, insinuate your family is responsible of all sorts of wild things, play wounded while lashing out, and generally behave like a passive-aggressive asshat, as you've done to her? Will you be disappointed if she doesn't?
Leaving the vegetarians-think-they're-holier-than-thou issue aside, what irks me about these threads is the constant reference to "dinner parties" and the swanky elegance, attention to detail and snazzy stemware that are normally associated with such a term... as though you peeps ever owned more than 3 plates. Or kitchens substantial enough to host such soirees. I mean let's face it, to ESLers, a dinner party is a few bottles of Hite or soju, and a delivered pizza. And maybe a cake from Paris Baguette if it's someone's B-day. Hey, I'm sure you've all got enough shotglasses to keep the neighbourhood in jello shots, but really, jello isn't a main course.
So this yapping about "dinner parties" and the attendant social etiquette/reciprocity vis-a-vis vegetarians & meat-eaters is fine, as long as we're talking about the white linen tablecloth, candlelight and multiple-forks sort of parties. Not Shleppy the ESLer and his rucksack-toting buddies do galbi on the floor (or rooftop) with disposable plates & chopsticks. You peeps talk like you're the Duponts, the Rockefellers, or the gd Guru.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="JongnoGuru"]
| The Bobster wrote: |
Leaving the vegetarians-think-they're-holier-than-thou issue aside, what irks me about these threads is the constant reference to "dinner parties" and the swanky elegance, attention to detail and snazzy stemware that are normally associated with such a term... as though you peeps ever owned more than 3 plates. Or kitchens substantial enough to host such soirees. I mean let's face it, to ESLers, a dinner party is a few bottles of Hite or soju, and a delivered pizza. And maybe a cake from Paris Baguette if it's someone's B-day. Hey, I'm sure you've all got enough shotglasses to keep the neighbourhood in jello shots, but really, jello isn't a main course.
So this yapping about "dinner parties" and the attendant social etiquette/reciprocity vis-a-vis vegetarians & meat-eaters is fine, as long as we're talking about the white linen tablecloth, candlelight and multiple-forks sort of parties. Not Shleppy the ESLer and his rucksack-toting buddies do galbi on the floor (or rooftop) with disposable plates & chopsticks. You peeps talk like you're the Duponts, the Rockefellers, or the gd Guru. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anabolina
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Location: Bundang
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Plume D'ella Plumeria wrote: |
Where are you, Bob? You're supposed to be here, taking one for the team. Don't stay silent for too long. This thread is amusing me no end.
The lowly hot dog? Great smothered in chili, as well as in sauerkraut.
Vegetables? Wonderful critters and no, we shouldn't kill them unmercifully. Spare them pain as best one can. Eggplant is a personal favourite of mine. But meat ... pretty wonderful stuff too. Bacon and eggs on a Sunday; nothing can beat it.
I agree that the girls (along with the teacher called R) can be pretty insufferable in their elevated status ways of thinking about themselves. And that woman, who is rather militant in her views of meat eating, etc. She is not one I'd ever like to encounter face to face.
Keep fighting the good fight, Bob. Eating meat is not a sin, despite what some might say, and I am thinking of Rteach here. Meat tastes good, cooks well and fills the stomach in the most satisfying way. And smells darned wonderful during the cooking process. I am thinking of leg of lamb here ... |
I agree Plumeria, those poor veggies, so heartlessly murdered just because they can't make the same noises and look as cute a animals. If vegetarians(you know the ethical ones) really cared, they wouldn't eat anything.
Hmmm, anyway, yeah right, so the OP, who you know mentioned realizing he hadn't had meat in awhile. I've had the opposite problem and realized I'd ahd meat with every meal for a couple of month. You know, moderation and everything so I try not to go overboard with anything, but it can be hard, I love me some steak fajitas. Man, am I gonna miss the tex mex. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| That is a very heavy label to put on what amounts to a few missing ingredients. |
If you think it's not important, then I suppose that's your value system - a friendship that isn't based on equal regard hardly seems like friendship at all to me, and I doubt I'm unique in this.
If I were to invite you over to my house for dinner and serve you barbequed chicken, I suppose it wouldn't be very kind if I were to tell you, "Oh, come on, we always have vegetarian food when I come to visit you - you know how much I love chicken, so I know you wouldn't mind if we eat it together just this one time, right?"
If I did that, I'd be imposing my values on you and ignoring yours, and treating your desires as worthless next to my own. That would be arrogant of me.
|
I wrote a little bit in response to these points, and then I realized that your logic is so absurd that it doesn't even merit rebuttal. If you honestly believe that precise reciprocity in menus is a vital element of friendship, and that eating meat is a value, then what can I say? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Darashii
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Indeed, the things that keep popping outta this dude's fingers... Mindboggling, the...sigh. Just, wtfh. I'm just afraid of reciprocating the silliness. I'm glad others here know Bob and that he "means no harm".  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alinca
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Location: Left Coast Center
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
I�d like to chime in on this since I too have had dinner plans hijacked by veg-heads and I have a personal scenario I�d like to relate about how my mama brought me up. I am the boss at a small company and 1 or 2 times a week I would bring bagels for my workers. One day my lead man asked if I would bring doughnuts instead. I hope I did not give him a blank stare for too long as I was contemplating what I would have to do accomplish buying doughnuts. You see, I love doughnuts, but I cannot eat them. Their smell is so lovely but to me I have to think revolting, as even a small bite will send me to another and another until I am in a comma. I could easily say no, bagels are it because I am the boss and buying morning treats is not mandatory but a gift from me personally. But you see my mama brought me up different. At first I called ahead to the bakery and ordered them so they would be ready and sealed in a box so I would not have to look at their disgusting carcasses, even though the vile smell permeated may car. I could still smell the filth even after a full days work. Later my workers would tell me their favorite choices and as it turns out I needed to go to a market where you choose your self what exact pastry you want and self-serve from the selections. This is hard for me to do but I do it anyway because that�s how my mama raised me. To be courteous to others and give them what they enjoy, not what I think they should be eating. The same goes in my home, cakes, pies, cookies stink up the place from time to time. I have even done the deed myself for the pleasure of my guests. I grin and bear it and am glad when it is over. I am not arrogant about itm, but I could be. I could preach about the evils of sugar (when asked why I am not having birthday cake) and the damage it causes to our environment, the deaths that occur in its production http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSWNAS038820080211 just like the veg-heads do. But I don�t because that�s not the way my mama brought me up.
As for dinner plans being hijacked. The first time it happened we were with a group of about twenty newly acquainted walkers and at the end of our exercise we decided on a place to dine. We were getting ready to split into our vehicles and meet at the place when 2 stragglers of our group chimed in that they would like a different place be cause they were vegetarians. My eyes rolled in my head, as there was another great discussion about where to go. Hijack. I went and was polite, the night�s conversation turned to veggie talk and I vowed to not let that happen again. It has and at those times I say good night rather then endure the arrogance (there I said it) of the veg-heads. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
