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Is Vegetarianism a Religion?
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Well, IS it?
Yes, it's such a strongly-held belief system that it might as well be treated that way.
32%
 32%  [ 13 ]
No, it's a practice within many sects of many faiths, but it is not a religion by itself.
45%
 45%  [ 18 ]
Why can't we all just get along?
22%
 22%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 40

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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The current Wikipedia article on "Vegetarianism and Religion" is a pretty good survey, I think... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion

This other site, "Vegetarianism and the Major World Religions" is more from a vegetarian perspective:
www.serv-online.org/pamphlet2005.htm

Here's it's "Conclusion:"

Vegetarianism has been a common thread among the major world religions, even if only a minority have adopted the diet as an expression of their faith. For many people of faith, vegetarianism reflects the Golden Rule: Christianity � �So, whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them� (Matthew 7:12); Judaism � �Do not do unto others what you would not wish to be done to yourself � that is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary� (Babylonian Talmud); Islam � �No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself�; Bah�'� Faith � �Blessed is he that preferreth his brother to himself�; Taoism � �Regard your neighbor�s gain as your own gain, and your neighbor�s loss as your own loss�; Hinduism � �This is the sum of duty: do naught to others that which if done to thee would cause pain�; Jainism � �A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated�; Buddhism � �Hurt not others with that which pains yourself.�

With factory farming torturing animals on a scale unprecedented in human history and with the growing environmental crisis threatening human civilization, the wisdom of the world�s religions to respect nature and all its inhabitants has become much more than an expression of ideal behavior. It has become a global imperative.


This link presents the Vedic cultural view of meat-eating, including this quote from the introduction of Bhagavad-gita As It Is:

"In this world man is not meant to toil like hogs. He must be intelligent to realize the importance of human life and refuse to act like an ordinary animal. A human being should realize the aim of his life, and this direction is given in all Vedic literatures, and the essence is given in Bhagavad-gita. Vedic literature is meant for human beings, not for animals. Animals can kill other living animals, and there is no question of sin on their part, but if a man kills an animal for the satisfaction of his uncontrolled taste, he must be responsible for breaking the laws of nature. In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly explained that there are three kinds of activities according to the different modes of nature: the activities of goodness, of passion and of ignorance. Similarly, there are three kinds of eatables also: eatables in goodness, passion and ignorance. All of this is clearly described, and if we properly utilize the instructions of Bhagavad-gita, then our whole life will become purified, and ultimately we will be able to reach the destination which is beyond this material sky. That destination is called the sanatana sky, the eternal spiritual sky."
http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/4regs/vegetarian/dharma.htm
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Regarding "bramble", I think you've unfairly charactarized her as a supporter of terrorism because of her sharing some of the same ideals and goals espoused by radical activist groups

RTeacher, you need to look at this statement of yours one more time. You seem to be indicating that I confused someone's support of goals with support for their methods. Now, after seeing what this person says, you need to fess up and confirm that you understand that she DOES in fact support violence followed by running and hiding in the shadows as a valid form of political activity.


Rteacher wrote:
There are degrees of terrorism, and I think that the term is best reserved for those groups who instill fear by engaging in the brutal killing of living beings - especially humans.

I'm disappointed, I must say.

Random House -->terrorism:"the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes." I don't see any indication that killing needs to occur in order for the word to pertain.

In a perfect world, I too could change the meanings of words on a whim in order to avoid backpedaling and admitting an earlier statement was wrong. The person you have spoken of as merely being a supporter of groups with similar goals ... well, RT, this person does in fact support the violent methods they employ as well. This is extremism, and this is why it is dangerous.

You are too smart to do this and think it will fly. Hence, my disappointment.

Again, in bold red ink : "I think it�s incredibly arrogant for any of us to dismiss direct action out of hand (...) I just don�t like the idea of dismissing illegal tactics in principle."

The "direct action" spoken here is violent action, much of it carried out in anger, not love, if the slogans painted on walls are any indication. And the fear that is their intent damages people just to the same extent as a physical blow - and RT, there is no way to reassure me that someone who supports such violence today might not take part in it tomorrow. Or that violence against mere property and harassing phone call in the night will be enough to contain their rage.

Quote:
And supporting a group - or cause (eg: stopping abortions) that may include some radical/fanatical elements who at some point may resort to killing does not necessarily indicate unconditional support for such real acts of terror - especially if the group doesn't sanction or encourage such acts ...

This is not what we are talking about. Reasonable people can disagree about abortion and still confine their political action to reasoned or emotional debate and efforts to persuade the populace or provide the courts and legislaors with convincing arguments for their side - if I understand you, I think you are suggesting something more, that people who support groups who plant bombs in clinics or make death threats against doctors are engaging in valid political discourse.

Is that what you mean? Do you think merely "supporting goals" adequately describes the person who made the statemnt I put in bright red ink above? Do you really?

The person in these forums you are defending does morre than support the goals of the groups mentiooned, she also supports their tactics as well. It is not wrong to call such a person a supporter of terrorist organizations because that is exactly the case ... and creating your own definition of the word for your own convenience is a sad thing to try to do, RT.

Very sad.

The attitudes you are defending are precisely those that characterize the fanaticism I spoke of in the OP. It's dangerous, and there's no love in it anywhere, and people who support this kind of thinking and this kind of action are a source of anxiety for anyone who cares about the future of a free society.

What is the solution, if you know you are right, and the world keeps on doing the wrong thing? Well, you keep on working to change people's minds, that's what, keep working for 500 years if necessary - but you cannot bring about a just world by methods that are unjust, that are nothing more than thuggery and coercion.

I think you know that, and I regret having to point out that a serious and honest discussion between reasonable people cannot occur when one decides to change the meanings of words for their own benefit.

Thanks for the quote from the Bhagavad-gita, but I had already suspected that vegetarianism in many world religions ... in fact, I thought I knew it already, and if there's some further relevance you intended that I missed I'll be happy to listen to that also.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term "terrorist" has a very heavy connotation, which can - and specifically has been - exploited politically by groups seeking to maintain the status quo (in their abusive exploitation of animals and the environment...)

According to the Wikipedia article, "terrorism" has over 100 definitions, and one terroism expert noted that the "only general characteristic generally agreed upon is that terrorism involves violence and the threat of violence" .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism

That is such a broad definition that a mother warning her unruly child to stop acting-up in a supermarket and applying a firm smack to the kid's behind could be considered a "terrorist" (though another loaded, pejoritave term, "child-abuser" is usually used by those ideologically opposed to any parental use of physical force...)

In the history of U.S. labor-management relations, many union activists have made threats and caused some damage to property and businesses without being labeled terrorists ...

I think that the general public associates the term "terrorist" with groups that make threats of brutal killings and widespread destruction against their political targets and then follow through with deadly force in a horrifying way.

The examples given by "the bobster" to indicate terrorist acts on the part the Animal Liberation Front are relatively mild considering the heavy connotation carried by the term.

Such acts - when illegal - most often could be denoted by another legal term such as "vandalism", "disorderly conduct", or "tortious interference with a business" ...

Business interests whose existence largely depends on morally dubious abuse and slaughter of animals and destruction of the environment have lobbied the government to insidiously broaden the definition of terrorist to include even non-violent methods used by animal rights and environmentalist groups:

Acts of civil disobedience which are nonviolent in nature cannot be properly referred to as "eco-terrorism", even though they might be annoying or disruptive to others. However, some proposed laws are raising civil rights concerns by using an all-encompassing definition that could be interpreted to include virtually all environmental protests, even those that would otherwise be legal. For example, a bill proposed by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) in Texas called the "Animal and Ecological Terrorism Act", begins with the description, "An act relating to criminal offenses involving acts against certain activities involving animals or involving natural resources and to civil consequences arising from convictions of those offenses." The bill defines an "animal rights or ecological terrorist organization" as "two or more persons organized for the purpose of supporting any politically motivated activity intended to obstruct or deter any person from participating in an activity involving animals or an activity involving natural resources."[5]

Environmentalists have argued that "eco-terrorism" should mean the opposite of its current accepted meaning. They say that persons, companies and governments engaging in ecologically irresponsible activities such as clearcutting of forests are committing "terrorism" against the environment.[6] This counter-definition is also sometimes used rhetorically to express the environmentalist point of view, or to justify their actions. Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki, for instance, has described the former Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard, as an "eco-terrorist" for failing to abide by the Kyoto Protocol on climate change.[6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-terrorism

I personally think that it's inappropriate and shameful for the U.S. government to continue to give special protection and support to the beef industry, factory-farmers, and other business interests that destructively exploit animals and the environment.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
The term "terrorist" has a very heavy connotation

I agree wholeheartedly. It's a word that has some meaning, and I think you agree with me about what it does mean - it's more than just the kind of fraternity pranks you seem to think I'm talking about.

Quote:
The examples given by "the bobster" to indicate terrorist acts on the part the Animal Liberation Front are relatively mild considering the heavy connotation carried by the term.

Such acts - when illegal - most often could be denoted by another legal term such as "vandalism", "disorderly conduct", or "tortious interference with a business" ...

Let's remember that ALF's website lists "actions" (read: crimes) that are self-reported - these are the things done in their name that they are willing to take credit for, in other words. We will search in vain for accounts of assaults committed against persons by members of this groups, or anyone claiming to be a member. We must take it on faith that such has never occurred ... surely, we don't have to wonder if they would tell us, do we?

Oh, wait, we don't have to wonder. Here's a group closely affiliated with ALF, and containing many of the same individual members. SHAC

Brian Cass was getting out of his car at his home in England on a clear night in February 2001, when he was surrounded by three masked men wielding heavy, wooden objects. Some news reports describe them as baseball bats, others as pickaxe handles. Whatever their weapons, they started to beat the 53-year-old Cass on the head and body without any warning. In a few short moments, his hair and jacket were soaked through with blood.

A neighbor tried to intervene and help him, but was immobilized by a spray of CS gas, in the face, by one of Cass�s attackers. Months later, when the lead attacker was arrested and sentenced to three years in prison, Cass� marketing director Andrew Gay was attacked on his doorstep with a chemical spray to his eyes, leaving him temporarily blinded and writhing in pain in front of his wife and young daughter.

British thirty-somethings Paul and Heather Saunders were entertaining friends one autumn night in 2000 when they heard two loud crashes from the direction of their front patio. They ran toward the noise to find that two large chunks of dried cement had been thrown through their plate-glass patio doors. The two vandals they saw running away paused for a moment, to pour paint stripper all over their guests� car.

Nearly five months later, a strange package was delivered to the house, addressed to Heather. The bomb squad in their town found enough explosives inside to kill anyone who might have dared to open it.


Doesn't sound much like Thoreau, Gandhi or Rev King, does it?

Quote:
I personally think that it's inappropriate and shameful for the U.S. government to continue to give special protection and support to the beef industry, factory-farmers, and other business interests that destructively exploit animals and the environment.

You are entitled to your personal thoughts, but I don't see any "special protection" going on. Civil law protects legal businesses from violence being perpetrated upon them in just the way that civil law protects you from being mugged on a street corner by gangsters, common criminals or deranged lunatics with rage and violence in their eyes and in their hearts.

I can understand that perhaps you'd like to see agribusiness outlawed, and you know, there are some laws I'd like to change as well. You can't get there by means of clandestine violence and fear.

To quote Dr King, if you'll allow me:

"The aftermath of nonviolence is the creation of the beloved community, while the aftermath of violence is tragic bitterness."

Um, and if you don't mind, I'm going to stick with Random House as a source for the meanings of words, even when it would be more convenient to go to wikipedia, which has been known to change it's text from day to day
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