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kiwiduncan
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Immigration officials bust foreign anti-canal protestors |
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No they didn't.
It was a nice day. I saw a few foreign faces in the crowd, including some other Kiwis who happened to be passing by and decided to join in.
The riot cops were there of course, but that's just procedure in Korea and there was not a single nasty incident at all, with the expection of some passing nutter slagging off the protestors at the start.
A nice way to spend a sunny afternoon. |
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Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Gay ^ |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I unfortunately couldn't make it, but it sounds like they didn't get as many people as they were hoping for. |
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kiwiduncan
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| I unfortunately couldn't make it, but it sounds like they didn't get as many people as they were hoping for. |
There were more people than the pictures suggest (maybe 300 or so) but still a pretty disappointing turnout in a city of 12 million. Despite that, there were some very smart, progressive and forward-thinking people there who know that the grand canal will be not just an environmental disaster, but also a wasteful drain on the economy. |
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Ethan Allen Hawley
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Looks good |
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Sorry I couldn't make it. I would have liked to have been there. Numbers don't mean much unless they're absolutely huge. Smaller groups can actually be more effective in some situations because they're easier to mobilise and coordinate.
It's still early days yet, what with Pres. Lee being sworn in just yesterday or so, wasn't it? His honeymoon period won't last, especially if people get to looking more closely at that absurd sham of an investigation which was mentioned in an editorial in the English language news. If they're publishing it in English, I'd be fascinated to know what's being said in Korean. I'm also waiting for the swing-back after the initial period of adulation and relief from those who were against Roh wears off. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Ethan, your signature gives me the willeys. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Is that Jungno?
Wow- so clean! |
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Ethan Allen Hawley
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Political willies |
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Bassexpander,
My signiture gives you the willies?
That's interesting. I kinda nearly agree with what you were saying in that other thread about the absurd number of hoops we all have to go through these days to make a year's contract official in this country. I've been here a few years and have to say I enjoyed the ease with which one could jump on in country.
The thing is, it's still fascinating just being here, watching this young new country with it's ancient culture struggling with modernity, including new concepts/ styles of freedom and democracy. I've been to at least a couple of protest marches in Seoul and walked alongside oldboy ajusshis carrying 2x4s with twinkles in their eyes as they faced down the squadrons of fresh-faced teenagers in dull blue helmets and riot-shields.
And now people are starting to run back to the government and demand protection from us bad foreigners which comes in the form of immigration hoops etc., while at the same time having to realise that just as not every foreigner is here to impose either a sense of corrupt immorality or cultural imperialist ways, and so too not every big business development project is necessarily helpful, useful or profitable for their land or economy.
Yes, I realise a foreigner like me with a message like that runs the risk of being labelled cultural imperialist. I challenge myself and all others to keep standing back and looking for the bigger, and biggest picture. Are we not all global citizens? Have we from nation-states with longer histories of so-called development not seen and suffered through experience of urban sprawl, and witnessed the death of vast tracts of natural beauty? Do we not all share the challenge of preserving air quality and nature in a state that is enjoyable for our grandchildren, and our neighbours' great-grandchildren, very literally?
I'm nearly sorry for the tone of ernest rhetoric here, it's just that in China, there is no real right to protest without becoming an unwilling donor of body organs. And I have local friends there who have just started to learn truths about their government and recent history. And they live amongst the urban sprawl and within the nightmare developments and political repression of that land, and at the source of the hwangsah, or yellow dust we're sure to start enjoying any day now.
So, for all the hoops K. immigration make us go through this year, I can handle it, short term anyway. But when 'our nation's' government starts withdrawing political freedoms for you, me and the good locals, then I'll definately be looking at heading somewhere where the air tastes both fresher and freer. Meantime, I'll gladly join marches which work for the preservation of both, and the good of us all. |
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kiwiduncan
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Political willies |
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| Ethan Allen Hawley wrote: |
I've been to at least a couple of protest marches in Seoul and walked alongside oldboy ajusshis carrying 2x4s with twinkles in their eyes as they faced down the squadrons of fresh-faced teenagers in dull blue helmets and riot-shields.
And now people are starting to run back to the government and demand protection from us bad foreigners which comes in the form of immigration hoops etc., while at the same time having to realise that just as not every foreigner is here to impose either a sense of corrupt immorality or cultural imperialist ways, and so too not every big business development project is necessarily helpful, useful or profitable for their land or economy.
Yes, I realise a foreigner like me with a message like that runs the risk of being labelled cultural imperialist. I challenge myself and all others to keep standing back and looking for the bigger, and biggest picture. Are we not all global citizens? Have we from nation-states with longer histories of so-called development not seen and suffered through experience of urban sprawl, and witnessed the death of vast tracts of natural beauty? Do we not all share the challenge of preserving air quality and nature in a state that is enjoyable for our grandchildren, and our neighbours' great-grandchildren, very literally?
I'm nearly sorry for the tone of ernest rhetoric here, it's just that in China, there is no real right to protest without becoming an unwilling donor of body organs. And I have local friends there who have just started to learn truths about their government and recent history. And they live amongst the urban sprawl and within the nightmare developments and political repression of that land, and at the source of the hwangsah, or yellow dust we're sure to start enjoying any day now.
So, for all the hoops K. immigration make us go through this year, I can handle it, short term anyway. But when 'our nation's' government starts withdrawing political freedoms for you, me and the good locals, then I'll definately be looking at heading somewhere where the air tastes both fresher and freer. Meantime, I'll gladly join marches which work for the preservation of both, and the good of us all. |
I agree with you. I'm tired of the cynical pricks amongst the foreigners here who think the only thing we can do, or should do, in Korea is make money. I'll be completely honest and say the reason I came back to Korea is because it's a great place to save money, but the best way to make your time here more fulfilling is to get involved in the same kind of issues and activities that you would do back in your own country. Otherwise there is a risk of just "putting your life on hold", counting up the cash while counting down the days and seeing every Korean as just another student to be milked, an ajosshi to be mocked or a cutie girl to be bedded.
So I too will try to accept the silly new immigration laws as just another annoying but fairly trivial aspect of living in Korea. What will really turn me off Korea for good is the day that foreigners are not allowed to participate in demonstrations, volunteer work and other activities that help us contribute to Korean society and feel much more positive about our times here. So far I've found that Koreans in the environmental movement have been some of the warmest, most interesting and most welcoming people to spend time with.
 The ecosystem is the 21st Century's National Treasure No. 1.
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saw6436
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm totally in favor of the canal. It's not like Korea is currently a pristine country now. I think a canal will do alot toward; 1. Water/Flood control. 2. Cut transport costs on non-time sensitive goods. 3. Promote regional tourism. And, 4th. I believe it will increase the ecology of Korea.
I think Lee, Myung-Bak is thinking in terms of he Rhine River system rather than some ditch cut though the landscape. |
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Ethan Allen Hawley
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: "...increase the ecology..." ?! |
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Clearly, I haven't researched this whole issue widely enough.
Saw6436, please, edumicate me:
What DO you mean by saying that constructing a canal, even one as ambitious as turning a shallow, wide stream into something like 'the Rhine' can 'increase the ecology'? |
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kiwiduncan
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| saw6436 wrote: |
I'm totally in favor of the canal. It's not like Korea is currently a pristine country now. I think a canal will do alot toward; 1. Water/Flood control. 2. Cut transport costs on non-time sensitive goods. 3. Promote regional tourism. And, 4th. I believe it will increase the ecology of Korea.
I think Lee, Myung-Bak is thinking in terms of he Rhine River system rather than some ditch cut though the landscape. |
I'm not sure if this link works or not for non-Facebook users, but there's lots of information about why the canal plan is so flawed here.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=7935272621
I have to disagree with all your points. You say "it's not like Korea is currently a pristine country now". That's pretty much like saying a lot of damage has been done, do let's finish it off. Something doesn't have to be 100% pure and untouched before it's worth protecting or restoring.
The risk of flooding will be reduced, claim canal proponents, by dredging out the rivers from their current average depth of 2-3 metres to a more navigable depth of 6-9 metres will increase the water holding capacity of the river systems. However, in order to have ships running down the rivers they'll need to keep the water levels up all the time, so when the heavy summer rains come they won't have any extra holding capacity and the water will be more likely to overflow.
The vast majority of Korean freighting is very time sensitve. Korea is a country increasingly moving from bulk manufacturing to high-tech, smaller scale technology and there are far faster and more efficient ways to send these goods than via canals. In a recent survey of goods consigners, close to 80% of respondants said they would not use the canal as moving goods via the canal would be complicated and time consuming. Moving goods by canal does admittedly produce far fewer greenhouse gases than using trucks, but trains are an even cleaner option.
In terms of tourism the canal proponents are simply pulling figures and predictions out of the arses. Some of their predictions about the numbers of potential Chinese tourists who might choose to take a cruise on the canal are farcical
"From now on upcountry can develop own way and hire more people. Moreover, the natural beautiful land of Korea builds up the tourism by constructing the great waterway. The local employment is created more and the area economy revives as well. For instance, Chinese who annual income of exceeds 10,000 dollar is over 1 million people. If those waterway and tourist spot attract only 10% of them, it means at least 10 million people will come to Korea from China. "
Believe it or not, that's actually from the English language pages of LMB's official website, and it's a pretty good example of the amateur, child-like logic displayed by so many of the canal proponents. Apparantly the number of Chinese tourists who come back to Korea after their first visit is dismally low, largely because of them being ripped off by both Chinese tourist operators and local businesses. If LMB wants to get serious about boosting tourism in Korea they could simply develop policies protecting tourists' rights.
In terms of ecology, the main rivers involved - the Han, Nakdong and Geum rivers - are all going to have the life dredged out of them to a depth of 6-9 metres. Whole valleys are going to be flooded and massive tunnels bored through mountains. Sections of the rivers will need to be blasted as the bedrock is often only one or two metres below the water surface. In many areas the rivers will also be widened and that, along with the dredging and the huge areas covered with construction roads and other facilities, will result in serious damage to the sand banks, river margins and other natural features. Of course, in this modern day and age even LMB makes some glib references to the environment, so I am sure we will see a few cute little eco-parks popping up here and there, but they will be nothing in comparison to the damage that will be done. Keep in mind that the companies expressing interest in this project are more interested in getting development rights to land adjacent to the rivers, so fields, streams, wetlands and woodlands close to the rivers will likely be turned into 'toursism hubs', 'logistics hubs' and other developments.
Finally, the European inland waterway systems were mostly developed a couple of centuries ago before railways and trucks. And the European waterways stretch largely across flat, continental areas where a canal makes sense. In contrast, Korea is a country surrounded by the sea on three sides and covered with mountains. In comparison to Europe's waterway river Korea's rivers are steep, fast flowing, not all that deep and subject to great seasonal variation in rainfall and hence water levels. You're right that in that it's not going to be a 550km long completley man-made trench. The course of the canal will, for the most part, be on two already existing rivers. But the simple fact is that, in order to make these two rivers navigable for 2500ton ships, they will have to make some many changes to the natural river systems that they will end up with a really buggered ecosystem.
I'm curious about where you got your information from. Maybe I'm can be proven completely wrong in my opposition to the canal, but everything I've seen so far suggests it's going to be a environmentally damaging, economically draining white elephant. |
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superdave
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: over there ----->
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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my understanding is that it's illegal for foreigners to get involved in protests or political demonstrations.
not trying to be an arse, but why would you risk this kind of trouble? |
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kiwiduncan
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| superdave wrote: |
my understanding is that it's illegal for foreigners to get involved in protests or political demonstrations.
not trying to be an arse, but why would you risk this kind of trouble? |
On the same day as the canal protest there was a massive demonstration for foreign workers' rights, in which hundreds of South Asian workers participated. They were probably also protesting illegally. 
I think the government just has to turn a blind eye. Any crackdown on foreigners participating in peaceful demonstrations would probably only backfire on Korea's international image. |
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kiwiduncan
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Below is my attempted translation of one GNP candidate's comments about the grand canal. Maybe my translation has a few flaws but the guy really seems to contradict himself
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송태영 한나라당 청주 흥덕을 예비후보는 27일 성명을 내고 "한반도 대운하는 차질없이 추진돼야 한다"고 주장했다.Song Tae Young, the Grand National Party's reserve candidate for HeungDeok, Chungju announced his candidacy on the 27th and insisted "The Korean Peninsula Grand Canal must be carried out without failure.
송 후보는 "한반도 대운하는 경제와 환경을 업그레이드하는 대한민국의 국토경쟁력을 높이는 대역사"라며 "일부에서 환경파괴 등의 이유로 반대하고 있는 것을 이해 하지만, 반대를 위한 반대나 정치적인 입장에서 반대하는 것은 바람직하지 않다고 본다"고 말했다.
Candidate Song said "The grand canal is a great construction project that will upgrade the economy and environment and raise Korea's national competitiveness" and went to say "I understand the opposition from some quarters due to concerns about environmental destruction and so on, but simply opposing for opposition's sake or for political reasons looks inadvisable"
또 "한반도 대운하는 물류뿐만 아니라, 내륙지방의 균형 발전, 관광 인프라 확대, 지구온난화 대책, 일자리 창출과 경기부양 등 다목적 사업"이라며 "사전에 찬반 의견을 낼 수는 있지만 정치적인 목적으로 반대운동을 벌이는 것은 충북발전을 염원하는 도민들을 실망시키는 일이 되지 않을까 우려된다"고 덧붙였다.
He further added "The grand canal is not just about logistics but is also a multipurpose project for balanced inland regional development, an expansion of tourism facilities, a countermeasure to global warming, and source of new jobs and support for business". He then went on to say "One can express their opinions for and against the project in advance but I am concerned that engaging in opposition for political purposes will disappoint the residents of ChungCheongBukDo, who desire development in their region".
이어 "정부는 국민여론을 충분히 수렴해 국민적 공감대를 기반으로 추진하겠다는 것이며, 특히 친환경적으로 추진한다는 것이다"며 "정부가 세계적인 전문가들의 검토를 거쳐 설계 등 추진 계획이 나오면 그것에 대해 구체적인 입장과 대안을 내는 것이 바람직할 것"이라고 밝혔다.
He then said "The government will carry out the project on a basis of national sympathy after sufficiently reflecting on the national opinion, and it will be carried out in an environmentally friendly manner. It's preferable that tangible opinions and alternative plans should be voiced only after the design and implimentation plan comes out following scrutiny from international experts. |
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