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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts |
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Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts
By Robert Piggott
Religious affairs correspondent, BBC News
The scholars say they are returning to the original values of Islam
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.
The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.
The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.
This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion
Fadi Hakura,
Turkey expert, Chatham House
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm |
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Good, if it is intended to open things up for discussion it might lead to an enlightenment type effect on the muslim world. Good on ya Turkey. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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The funny thing is that the "scholarship" in this project is almost irrelevant -- Moslem scholars have known, essentially, forever that many of the hadith are latter-day additions. (Kind of like Biblical scholars have known forever that none of the gospels were actually written down by the participants.)
This is a political step, and an important one. It's designed to let the world's Moslems know that the hadith are not infallible. Good on Turkey, indeed. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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haha. Yeah. Naive infidels.
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CAIOR � Eighty scholars from 23 Turkish universities are working on a major project to classify and translate the Hadith (the collection of sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him).
"Make no mistake, we are not after modifying or revising the Hadith," Mehmet Gormez, deputy director of the religious affairs authority Diyanet and supervisor of the project, told IslamOnline.net in a phone interview.
"What we are actually doing is re-classifying, re-categorizing the Hadith and translating it into Turkish, no more no less."
A hadith literally means "saying," but in the Islamic technical sense, a hadith refers to the sayings of the Prophet, the Prophet's acts, the Prophet's tacit approval of an action or practice, or the Prophet's attributes, whether physical or moral.
Gormez said the three-year project has to do with a new understanding of the Sunnah and Hadith and accordingly making them more understandable to today's Turks.
He added that Turkish scholars working on the project, which will be completed by yearend, are taking early Muslim scholars, who had already revised the Hadith, as their basic reference.
"We have compiled all hadiths and read them to reclassify them anew," he explained.
"We have also taken into account the unauthentic ones or those attributed falsely to the Prophet because to understand the true Hadith, you really need to (understand) the unauthentic sayings."
Muslim scholars believe Hadith is integral to the understanding of Qur'an, since they are inseparably linked to each other.
They say it is impossible to understand the Qur'an without reference to Hadith because the Qur'an is the message and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself.
Western Fuss
Gormez, a British trained theologian, said the re-classified Hadith will come in multiple volumes.
"It might be five or even six volumes; we are still not decided."
He shrugged off media suggestions that Turkey was re-writing the Hadith and creating a new Islam.
"They made too much fuss and took the project out of its real context.
"We are neither fashioning a new Islam nor dare to alter the fixtures maxims of Islam," Gormez said emphatically.
"The Western media have read what are doing from a Christian perspective and understood it in line with their Christian and Western cultures."
When it comes to Islam, Gormez said, the Western media is used to focusing on women's status and jihad.
Several British newspapers on Wednesday, February 27, ran stories on the Turkish project .
The Guardian headlines the story as "Turkey strives for 21st century form of Islam."
A day earlier the BBC reported the project under the headline "Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts."
Gormez also refuted claims they would and edit out some hadiths, especially about women.
"No Muslim in the right mind would dare delete any hadith or tamper with the Prophet's heritage." |
The only people reinterpretating the koran/hadith are white members of the cult of multicult. The muslims seem quite happy with things the way they are.
Naive naive naive.
stillnotking. I know you are using the spelling of "moslem" to be all fuzzy and tolerant, but you should know that you are using the offensive spelling. In your attempt to be all tolerant and 'neat' by using a strange spelling you did the opposite. Naive hippie.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1203757550116&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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[quote="thepeel"]haha. Yeah. Naive infidels.
| Quote: |
CAIOR � Eighty scholars from 23 Turkish universities are working on a major project to classify and translate the Hadith (the collection of sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him).
"Make no mistake, we are not after modifying or revising the Hadith," Mehmet Gormez, deputy director of the religious affairs authority Diyanet and supervisor of the project, told IslamOnline.net in a phone interview.
"What we are actually doing is re-classifying, re-categorizing the Hadith and translating it into Turkish, no more no less."
A hadith literally means "saying," but in the Islamic technical sense, a hadith refers to the sayings of the Prophet, the Prophet's acts, the Prophet's tacit approval of an action or practice, or the Prophet's attributes, whether physical or moral.
Gormez said the three-year project has to do with a new understanding of the Sunnah and Hadith and accordingly making them more understandable to today's Turks.
He added that Turkish scholars working on the project, which will be completed by yearend, are taking early Muslim scholars, who had already revised the Hadith, as their basic reference.
"We have compiled all hadiths and read them to reclassify them anew," he explained.
"We have also taken into account the unauthentic ones or those attributed falsely to the Prophet because to understand the true Hadith, you really need to (understand) the unauthentic sayings."
Muslim scholars believe Hadith is integral to the understanding of Qur'an, since they are inseparably linked to each other.
They say it is impossible to understand the Qur'an without reference to Hadith because the Qur'an is the message and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself.
Western Fuss
Gormez, a British trained theologian, said the re-classified Hadith will come in multiple volumes.
"It might be five or even six volumes; we are still not decided."
He shrugged off media suggestions that Turkey was re-writing the Hadith and creating a new Islam.
"They made too much fuss and took the project out of its real context.
"We are neither fashioning a new Islam nor dare to alter the fixtures maxims of Islam," Gormez said emphatically.
"The Western media have read what are doing from a Christian perspective and understood it in line with their Christian and Western cultures."
When it comes to Islam, Gormez said, the Western media is used to focusing on women's status and jihad.
Several British newspapers on Wednesday, February 27, ran stories on the Turkish project .
The Guardian headlines the story as "Turkey strives for 21st century form of Islam."
A day earlier the BBC reported the project under the headline "Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts."
Gormez also refuted claims they would and edit out some hadiths, especially about women.
"No Muslim in the right mind would dare delete any hadith or tamper with the Prophet's heritage." |
The only people reinterpretating the koran/hadith are white members of the cult of multicult. The muslims seem quite happy with things the way they are.
[Do you mean that the Turks as light-skinned people with a lot of European DNA are the only ones doing this. I am not sure what you meant by the only people re-interpreting the Quran and Hadith are whites.
I think there have been attempts to also crack down on radicals in the Middle East. Of course, Turkey's lead here, hopefully, will be echoed by Syrian and Jordanian scholars. I am not sure if they will collaborate.
As far as Muslims happy with the way things are, I don't think so.
Muslims complain all the time about how their set up is down there.
But you may know something they don't. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
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I am not sure what you meant by the only people re-interpreting the Quran and Hadith are whites.
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He means western intellectuals who support multiculturalism and try to whitewash the less attractive aspects of Islam.
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Of course, Turkey's lead here, hopefully, will be echoed by Syrian and Jordanian scholars. I am not sure if they will collaborate.
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As I understand it, as a result of Ataturk's laicitism, Turkey already has a standing tradition of the government regulating religious teaching. Syria et al are officially secular as well, but I do wonder how closely they would want to be identified with a Turkish endeavour, even if it is being undertaken by an offically Islamic party. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| [Do you mean that the Turks as light-skinned people with a lot of European DNA are the only ones doing this. |
No, I mean that naive white-guilt multiculties like to pretend that muslims 1) don't believe their own religion or 2) secretly dislike it (as you did, above).
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I think there have been attempts to also crack down on radicals in the Middle East. |
Really? The Middle East is a big place. I'd say that there is more state encouragement of "radical" (meaning obedient) muslims than the opposite.
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Of course, Turkey's lead here, hopefully, will be echoed by Syrian and Jordanian scholars. I am not sure if they will collaborate. |
"Lead" on what. Translating the hadiths to Turkish? What the hell do you think that will change?
Also, if there was a revision, why do you assume it would be towards a liberal reform and not a more conservative one. Maybe you are making assumptions about their civilization from a limited understanding of your own.
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As far as Muslims happy with the way things are, I don't think so.
Muslims complain all the time about how their set up is down there.
But you may know something they don't. |
Yeah, they blame the Jews. Also, they say they need "more islam". The most "moderate" muslim I know thinks a return to the glory days (of mass slaughter of infidels and the organized segregation of the "people of the book", but who are we to judge?) of more islam is the answer. |
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TML1976
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I think that Islam is going through a reformation and that this is manifesting itself in different ways, the most obvious of which is the internal battle (jihad) that is taking place within Islam.
This battle goes beyond the commonly refered to feuding such as the fighting between the shias and the sunnis or between the wahabbis and the sufis or between the liberal/moderates and radical/conservatives.
This reformation is for the soul of the religion, and who ever wins will determine the type of future Islam and Muslims will have.
In fact, I think the muslim worlds attitude and actions towards the west is not because they see a clash of civilizations, although many a mullah and government in muslim countries are promoting this view, but rather as a by product of the reformation that they are going through.
Another thing, a common misconception is that the Koran was written by Mohamed and it is the word of God, but the truth is that just like the Hadiths, the Koran was written by the contermporaries of Mohamed and some others that came after his death, sometimes centuries after. So the truth is that neither the Hadith nor the Koran are infallible. But don't say that to a Muslim otherwise you are braking his biggest idol. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
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| [Do you mean that the Turks as light-skinned people with a lot of European DNA are the only ones doing this. |
No, I mean that naive white-guilt multiculties like to pretend that muslims 1) don't believe their own religion or 2) secretly dislike it (as you did, above).
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I think there have been attempts to also crack down on radicals in the Middle East. |
[I think you are going a little off-base. The article, if you read it, shows that the Turks are trying to remove hadiths that are deemed to be inauthentic and were inserted by certain rulers during the Umayyad period, for example. Turkey has many moderates especially among the Sufis. As far as re-interpretation, this is also happening among some American Muslims. I remember reading about that recently, and I was actually shocked at some of the liberal interpretations. There is also an Egyptian preacher who is quite liberal on television that people listen to.
Those elements were not so visible in the past.
Really? The Middle East is a big place. I'd say that there is more state encouragement of "radical" (meaning obedient) muslims than the opposite.
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[That may have been true in the past. It is 2008, not 1975. Sadat, for example, encouraged the radicals to suppress the socialists. Then, the radicals shot him. The Saudis ignored all radicals, and they realized the problems with that. The Syrian Mufti Keftaro seems somewhat sufi like.
Does the Syrian Government encourage Muslim radicals inside Syria?
Not really. You make sweeping generalizations based on prejudice rather than regional understanding, a desire to research the matter. The governments for too long ignored radicals at their own peril. And your comment that obedient Muslims are radical is a subjective opinion.
Of course, Turkey's lead here, hopefully, will be echoed by Syrian and Jordanian scholars. I am not sure if they will collaborate. |
"Lead" on what. Translating the hadiths to Turkish? What the hell do you think that will change?
[You did not read the story obviously. It is not about translating. The Turks already translated everything centuries ago. Where have you been? They are editing the books.]
Also, if there was a revision, why do you assume it would be towards a liberal reform and not a more conservative one. Maybe you are making assumptions about their civilization from a limited understanding of your own.
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[Because that is what many moderate Muslims talk about and Turkey has many of them. And among Muslim circles where people debate, from what I have seen, they talk about corrupt hadiths that are bad that were added by rulers. So, I am inclined to think the Turks will look at those.]
As far as Muslims happy with the way things are, I don't think so.
Muslims complain all the time about how their set up is down there.
But you may know something they don't. |
Yeah, they blame the Jews. Also, they say they need "more islam". The most "moderate" muslim I know thinks a return to the glory days (of mass slaughter of infidels and the organized segregation of the "people of the book", but who are we to judge?) of more islam is the answer. |
[This is, again, prejudice. Moderate Muslims often talk about the tolerance of Andalucia, Spain. It was rather tolerant though there were sectarian problems here and there. I don't think you know moderate Muslims. I never met any who say they want to slaughter people. That's ridiculous. This is like a Borat world of Islam according to Peel:) |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Can you please figure out the quote function?
My "secular" peer thinks that a return to the glory days of islam is what is needed. My addition to this is that the glory days were hardly glorious for the dhimni's who were slaughtered, kids placed in madrassas, subjected to the jyzia (infidel tax) and unable to openly do their own thing. I'm quite sure you don't know anything about that, though. It is nicely under the rug.
Anyways, please, tell me more Adverntuer. How will translating the hadiths into Turkish and then indexing them liberalise islam? |
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