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| Total Votes : 69 |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Temporary wrote: |
How many of you actually practice Martial Arts..
I think a lot of you are Armchair Fighters and have no clue what it takes.
I heard from a guy from a guy or a friend of a friend. Untill you step up please *beep* up. Please provide proof. I am more then willing too.
As far as effectivness.. Simple is good.
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There will always be a few "armchair fighters" as you call them around web board. But I would say that most of the people who have contributed to this thread have at least a little bit of experience. Most of your observations are correct also. If you are talking about "The martial way" whatever that means then no you cannot become good in just a few months and you are right that it takes years to become proficient.
But I think that what most people are discussing here is hand to hand combat and that can be learned in a relatively short amount of time.
I trained in one of the best World Muay Thai Federation schools in Bangkok. The school had a three month plan where you coulld go 4 -6 hours a day for intensive training. After about 3 months you were pretty competent. Could you win a world championhip? Of course not but you had more than enough tools to hold your own and inflict a fair amount of damage should the need arise. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you to TECO and Xingyman for the kind comments - I forgot all about these two posts but I stand by what I said.
I'm an experienced amateur boxer (Britannia ABC in St Helens Merseyside) and a proper heavyweight but I'm the first person to admit that there are a million blokes who can kick my arse - and I'm in good company - Mike Tyson, Cro Cop, Tito Ortiz, Ali and Fraizer have all got beaten in a fight. You may be a badass in the gym or in your dojo but if you employ a bad attitude because you have mastered a martial art outside you are soon going to get upended - no exceptions!
There is learning to fight in a certain style and there is using it in a responsible manner, I also believe a good fighter is a fit fighter who keeps in shape with roadwork and gym exercises. In fact the fitness side is more important than what you know in a lot of cases. If you are a 15th dan in karate (I don't know if there is such a thing) then it is no good being one if you are huffing and puffing after a minute.
I think all martial arts have positives and negatives to them. I have only ever boxed so I cannot really go down the road of dissecting how good karate is against judo or whatever but I think if you have good striking techniques which you can learn in a boxing gym and learn how to grapple then you are going to be hard to beat.
Personally, I have fast hands and a fast straight left but some people can take a whack to the jaw, so if you are ever in a situation where you are fighting for your life then a throat strike using your fingers is something I would use personally - but thats if I have no other choice.
My credo on martial arts is if you enjoy doing a certain martial art then carry on! Incorporate a fitness regime alongside your martial arts training and try and compete if you can.
Remember what Gene Tunney always said "A fighter can always afford to act like a gentleman" and I think thats a good mantra to live by. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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To lighten the mood I thought I would give you all the link to Alexei Sayles finest sketch in using wit and repartee in a streetfight... absolutley
fantastic! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2lB4-Y0WqQ |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| For God's sake, people get killed in real Muay thai fights. Thats not effective. Thats lethal. |
Dunno, sounds effective to me. |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Good link, you'll note that the place the muay thai guy had the biggest advantage is with sweeps. TKD doesn't usually allow sweeps in sparring, so kinda unfair, but closer to real life. |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| just another day wrote: |
one of the most amazing things I have seen.
This guy is having problems breaking a beer bottle over his head. So imagine whats going on here. |
I've seen a guy break a bat with a similar strike. Now that's impressive. |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| in_seoul_2003 wrote: |
| Your post is quite silly for the simple fact that it seems to confirm alot of the complaints that people have said about TKD. Why would I let someone kick me? In a real fight would you just stand there and let someone kick you? Do you think that a fight is between two more or less stationary objects, like a fist and a board or a brick? Besides, don't 90% of all fights end up on the ground anyways? |
I believe the point was that TKD effectively teaches speed and power. Seems to have illustrated that quite well. How well they apply it in a fight looks like it's outside the scope of his post. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| JustJohn wrote: |
| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| For God's sake, people get killed in real Muay thai fights. Thats not effective. Thats lethal. |
Dunno, sounds effective to me. |
Sounds like nicholas has been watching Kickboxer on superaction. I've been in my share of Thaiboxing matches and sat ringside at countless more. Thaiboxing is no more dangerous than professional boxing. Yes occasionally people get killed as they do in various other sports.
Thaiboxing matches are, for the most part kind of boring to watch in my opinion because most of the time theres little action between moments where the fighters are trying to get the edge. Ive seen a few fighters really beat the tar out of each other but this is the exception generally not the rule. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| JustJohn wrote: |
Good link, you'll note that the place the muay thai guy had the biggest advantage is with sweeps. TKD doesn't usually allow sweeps in sparring, so kinda unfair, but closer to real life. |
Yeah the Thai sweeps are pretty much futile to try to defend against. Their done too quickly and there's no projection unlike many other Asian martial arts so you can't see it coming. You don't see em much in the ring though.
| JustJohn wrote: |
I believe the point was that TKD effectively teaches speed and power. Seems to have illustrated that quite well. How well they apply it in a fight looks like it's outside the scope of his post. |
TKD's best weapon is the spinning back kick. It's tough to see that one coming and it'll take you out of a fight pronto if you get hit by one. Tkd's weak points are that the self defense techniques they teach are grossly impractical and pretty much require the element of suprise to be able to pull off effectively. Also TKD is weak on blocking. The traditional blocks taught in the forms are pretty much thrown to the wayside when sparring in favor of standard boxing/kickboxing parries. Now I will admit that the boxing parries are easily learnt and applied but the traditional blocks like you see utilized in Traditional Karate, Kung Fu, etc.... are painful (to the reciever) and can sap someone's energy in a matter of seconds if applied properly (I've been on the recieving end). |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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And finally, this thread is not bad, but I think it's lacking a couple key observations:
1. TKD, wushu, and a handful of other martial arts are sport first, fighting system second. They are awesome sports, but get a TKD guy in a grappling situation and he's helpless (I know, I am one)
2. K1, UFC etc. are not real fighting. They might be the closest approximations we can have as a sport, but the most effective fighting in real life would definitely include groin strikes, eye gouges, etc.
3. The most effective martial arts should target the most vulnerable areas. Any martial art with a sport component (now I'm talking muay thai, bjj) is training you to do just the opposite, so in theory one of the old school martial arts that focuses on vulnerable points would be the most effective.
Additional thoughts:
However, an experienced ufc/k1 fighter would probably kick the snot out of most masters in those arts due simply to real fighting experience. This illustrates a paradox. The most effective martial arts cannot be practiced in an all out setting because they would kill and maim people. This means that barring the existence of some underground "fight to the death club" what would be the most effective martial arts can never be trained to their full potential. In light of that, your best bet might just be to train in some ufc/k1 proven combo such as muay thai/bjj.
Last edited by JustJohn on Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Temporary
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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First muay Thai guys only sweep when they have an opertunity to do so. A botched sweep can result in a broken shin. Muay Thai and kickboxing depend heavily on low kicks.. I was kicked so hard in the hamstring I couldn't walk for a week. I couldn't sleep for two days. Imagine a charly horse times 100 for 48 hours of constant pain.
Its a shame people underestimate boxing.. Its an amazing sport.
Also fighting is at least 60% conditioning. |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JustJohn wrote: |
And finally, this thread is not bad, but I think it's lacking a couple key observations:
1. TKD, wushu, and a handful of other martial arts are sport first, fighting system second. They are awesome sports, but get a TKD guy in a grappling situation and he's helpless (I know, I am one)
2. K1, UFC etc. are not real fighting. They might be the closest approximations we can have as a sport, but the most effective fighting in real life would definitely include groin strikes, eye gouges, etc.
3. The most effective martial arts should target the most vulnerable areas. Any martial art with a sport component (now I'm talking muay thai, bjj) is training you to do just the opposite, so in theory one of the old school martial arts that focuses on vulnerable points would be the most effective.
Additional thoughts:
However, an experienced ufc/k1 fighter would probably kick the snot out of most masters in those arts due simply to real fighting experience. This illustrates a paradox. The most effective martial arts cannot be practiced in an all out setting because they would kill and maim people. This means that barring the existence of some underground "fight to the death club" what would be the most effective martial arts can never be trained to their full potential. In light of that, your best bet might just be to train in some ufc/k1 proven combo such as muay thai/bjj. |
Some competitions in the same vein as UFC were pretty damn close to "anything goes".....I strongly doubt groin strikes or eye gouges happen in most fights...anybody who's seen many, many fights want to comment? I sure as hell never saw them except once....as a kid.
If your talking about the most effective as far as taking down a person fast as possible, your talking stuff like Krav Magna(sp?)....however, most fights are not fought with the intent to kill....
They're usually over things like misunderstanding, defending one's honor/pride, bad temper, trying to look tough, rage, etc.
Eye gouging and groin strikes obviously moves what should be a scuffle to a higher level of brutality. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Temporary wrote: |
First muay Thai guys only sweep when they have an opertunity to do so. A botched sweep can result in a broken shin. Muay Thai and kickboxing depend heavily on low kicks.. I was kicked so hard in the hamstring I couldn't walk for a week. I couldn't sleep for two days. Imagine a charly horse times 100 for 48 hours of constant pain.
Its a shame people underestimate boxing.. Its an amazing sport.
Also fighting is at least 60% conditioning. |
I agree. Boxing is a sure fire way to put you ahead of the competition. I trained in old school fisticuff boxing for about 2 years. Lots of my non-sparring training consisted of wailing on the bag until I had nothing left and then wailing some more. Consequently even my Thaiboxing instructors shyed away from my jabs. But boxing by itself ain't enough. Purist boxers who have no other training are suckers for takedowns and when that happens they're toast. I'll admit that a purist BJJ groundfighting mindset is equally limited but boxers tend to lose it all when they lose their footing. A good combination would be Boxing with Muay Thai and Judo/BJJ/Sambo. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ukon wrote: |
| JustJohn wrote: |
And finally, this thread is not bad, but I think it's lacking a couple key observations:
1. TKD, wushu, and a handful of other martial arts are sport first, fighting system second. They are awesome sports, but get a TKD guy in a grappling situation and he's helpless (I know, I am one)
2. K1, UFC etc. are not real fighting. They might be the closest approximations we can have as a sport, but the most effective fighting in real life would definitely include groin strikes, eye gouges, etc.
3. The most effective martial arts should target the most vulnerable areas. Any martial art with a sport component (now I'm talking muay thai, bjj) is training you to do just the opposite, so in theory one of the old school martial arts that focuses on vulnerable points would be the most effective.
Additional thoughts:
However, an experienced ufc/k1 fighter would probably kick the snot out of most masters in those arts due simply to real fighting experience. This illustrates a paradox. The most effective martial arts cannot be practiced in an all out setting because they would kill and maim people. This means that barring the existence of some underground "fight to the death club" what would be the most effective martial arts can never be trained to their full potential. In light of that, your best bet might just be to train in some ufc/k1 proven combo such as muay thai/bjj. |
Some competitions in the same vein as UFC were pretty damn close to "anything goes".....I strongly doubt groin strikes or eye gouges happen in most fights...anybody who's seen many, many fights want to comment? I sure as hell never saw them except once....as a kid.
If your talking about the most effective as far as taking down a person fast as possible, your talking stuff like Krav Magna(sp?)....however, most fights are not fought with the intent to kill....
They're usually over things like misunderstanding, defending one's honor/pride, bad temper, trying to look tough, rage, etc.
Eye gouging and groin strikes obviously moves what should be a scuffle to a higher level of brutality. |
In the first UFCs it was pretty much "anything goes" but you didn't see lots of the groin strikes, eye gouging, hair pulling, etc...
As for eye gouging, throat strikes etc you are talking real close quarter fighting- the kind of stuff Bruce Lee was concentrating on around the time of his death. I've seen quite a few fights go down over the course of 30 years and maybe once or twice I've seen a successful groin strike. I've never seen an eye gouge.
The fact is that most bar room brawls etc aren't like a martial arts match or a movie thats coreographed. I'ts quick, ugly and dirty meaning it's more of an uncoordinated slugfest than anything. Bumfights comes to mind. Also in a real encounter you use up most of your available energy within about 15-20 seconds due to the adrenal rush and all. This is where your training will make or break you. Because you can armchair referee imaginary fights all day but when it happens for real you are in fight or flight mode and you don't have the luxury of second guessing your reflexes.
Last edited by xingyiman on Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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It's irrelevant whether people normally strike vulnerable points in a street fight. Most people are stupid. It's the most effective, and the OP asked what was the most effective.
Now you're right, you're not going to want to straight up maim someone in a bar fight unless they pull a knife or something. However, that WOULD be the "most effective" thing to do, and again, that's what the OP asked. Plus, not all vulnerable spot strikes are maiming or killing. There are plenty that just knock the guy out or whatever, which would work nicely for less serious fights which are admittedly much more common. |
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