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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Nobody said it's not the law to carry your ARC. The issue is the legality of the method the Immigration agents are enforcing that law. |
Ah, my bad. I actually thought we were discussing the legalities for being asked, |
Same thing.
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and the potential ramifications for refusing (well, at least that's what me and Racetraitor were chatting about).
As for the guidelines of profiling when questioning... like I said earlier, it'd only get them so far. A good 100,000+ foreigners look exactly like Koreans here (Chosun-jo). |
Right. And that's why there's this thing called probable cause.
Now, I'm not saying that the Korean government doesn't treat its own laws as anything more than pretty lines on a paper. I'm just stating that there are laws in this country that also apply to Koreans, and that includes Koreans working as agents of their government. |
I'm heading to dinner with a lawyer bud of mine... want me to ask him any questions? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Sure!
- Why do the Immigration agents think they can accost someone on the basis of "looking foreign?"
- What constitutes "looking foreign?"
- What authority over Korean citizens does the Immigration agent have?
- What recourse against legal action does the agent have if the person refuses to provide identification and is later discovered to be a Korean citizen?
- What constitutes "in the course of their official duties?"
I'm especially interested in the answer to the last one. Last I heard, having a foreign appearance was not a crime.
I know a retired judge who's now a law prof up in Seoul (he's a member of my church and gave a lecture to the high school seniors of our denomination here in Busan last year). Think I'll e-mail those questions to him and see what his response is too.
Last edited by CentralCali on Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Do you really want to ask this man, my friend and a previous Supreme Court Justice, why Immigration officers think they can accost someone? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Yes:
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| To approach and speak to boldly or aggressively, as with a demand or request. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Yes:
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| To approach and speak to boldly or aggressively, as with a demand or request. |
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Sorry man, I'll ask him a few of the questions. But I take exception to your choice of words there. Looking through those definitions, it's obvious that the word is riddled with potential missteps - not to mention assumptions.
I'll ask him some basic questions...
-What rights/powers do Police have to request (/demand) ID?
-What rights do citizens have in kind?
-Does this differ when it is a 'foreigner' being asked (whether by police or Immigration officers)?
-Can a 'foreigner' refuse to comply? And if so, are there any legal consequences?
-Are there issues of "probable cause" in Korean law/statute? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Well, your list of questions is not what has been discussed thus far in this thread, but it is a good list nevertheless. And there's nothing wrong with my choice of word. Accost is exactly what an Immigration agent is doing when he walks up to someone on the street and demands they present identification. I know many people think accost is like assault, but it's not.
So, here's the list again:
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| Why do the Immigration agents think they can accost someone on the basis of "looking foreign?" |
It's been asserted in this thread that Immigration does not have jurisdiction over Koreans but only over foreigners. How, then, do Immigration agents justify demanding someone walking on the street present identification?
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| What constitutes "looking foreign?" |
Pretty hard to word this any other way, don't you think? Immigration agents are demanding identification from people they assume are foreigners--and there's the threat of arrest for non-compliance, isn't ther? What constitutes looking like a foreigner then? What training did the agents get to magically know that the person they're checking on the street is a foreigner?
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| What authority over Korean citizens does the Immigration agent have? |
Remember that post upthread about the Korean woman who "had to show" her ID because the Immigration agent "though she was a foreigner" because she was speaking English?
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| What recourse against legal action does the agent have if the person refuses to provide identification and is later discovered to be a Korean citizen? |
So, let's say it turns out that the Immigration agent, in fact, does not have any authority whatsoever over a Korean citizen. How does he justify demanding said Korean citizen present her ID to him? And how can he defend himself and his agency against legal action for violating her rights? Are "But she looked foreign" and "But she sounded foreign" valid bases for a legal investigation?
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| What constitutes "in the course of their official duties?" |
"In the course of their official duties" would, in my experience, tend to mean "in the course of their investigating someone who has allegedly violated the law or part of a random check." It's quite obvious that the ARC checks on the street are not random at all nor are they part of an investigation of a particular person who has allegedly violated the law. The on-the-street ARC checks are of persons who merely appear to be foreign.
Here's a suggestion: you can hand your list of questions to your friend and let him know they're from you. Then you can hand my list of questions to your friend and tell them they're not your questions. Actually, I'm interested in the answers to all of the questions there, yours and mine. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Would it please some here if they asked if you were foreign before asking for ID, then? Would that make it all better? |
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anyangoldboy
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Immigration do have control over Korean's too but you are too stupid to realize it...If a Korean person is hiring illegals immigration have the right to do something...Even if they aren't doing anything wrong immigration still has the right to check...
This is their country...If you dont look korean you arent korea...It's virtually immpossible to get Korean citizenship...therefore you are foreign...It's a dead give away that if you are white or black you are bound to be foreign...
God some people are dumb...You just dont get it...This is KOREA...I'll spell that one more time cause I can actually spell it...This is KOREA...
History has shown that the Korean police and immigration pretty do what they like...There is no point in trying to justify yourself by saying that you have a right to not show your ID...The rule is that you need to carry your ID with you at all time...It makes sense...If you get hurt and they need to find out who you are...etc...
Also if you aren't doing anything wrong why not just show the guy your card...
Also Immigration dont just work behind their desks...You have to be retarded to think that...Yes they do have a van and they do usually work at night...But that doesnt mean that they dont do random checks...
Remember they are still at war with the North...It would make sense that immigration and police have the right to check anyone... |
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mj roach
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| r'E'diculosity = 'in canada' blahblahblah 'probable cause' blahblahblah |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| I'm just happy cops here don't get live ammunition. Think how many people would be jumping them for their guns. In america its easier to buy a gun than take it off a cop. Here, it would be drop the cop, take the gun. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| bellum99 wrote: |
America
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A black man in a white neighborhood.
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Or white girl in a black neighborhood.
One time I was driving in a "bad" part of my city because I was going a photo project for my university. I was with some schoolmates. They pulled us over and assumed we were there to buy crack and told us we didn't belong.
It was really uncomfortable and I accidentally ashed my cigarette on the cop lady's boot. Not good. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Here's a suggestion: you can hand your list of questions to your friend and let him know they're from you. Then you can hand my list of questions to your friend and tell them they're not your questions. Actually, I'm interested in the answers to all of the questions there, yours and mine. |
Here's a suggestion - learn some manners.
I asked my friend, who has massive amounts of legal experience in the Korean Judicial system (both as a Supreme Court Justice and as an attorney), questions that were not loaded with innuendo or bias. I asked him them... as a friend.
If you want to ask him questions, you can pay the hundreds of dollars he normally charges to answer them. (seriously, you're acting like this guy owes you something. I've lost a lot of respect in you for how you would push your demands on a friend of mine... a 66 year old friend I might add. You're usually fairly civil, but if you can't see that some of your questions, and the wording thereof, might 'come at someone', I'm really done talking with you about this).
My friend was keen on answering the questions regarding civil rights when being stopped by officers. He was strong and certain when he said that they have little right to ask a Korean citizen to present their ID without probable cause or the actual suspicion (evidence) of a crime.
I asked him what a citizen should do. He said "If asked to show your ID, ask them why. If it is reasonable, show it to them. If you do not like their answer, simply refuse. They cannot hold you nor detain you legally. They may however attempt to 'delay' your leaving. At that point you can simply say 'I'm busy, and need to go. If you need to arrest me, do so. If not, I am leaving.'
He said that stops and detention without probable cause or a warrant are illegal. And, as a man of the law, he feels VERY confident he would never have to worry about that type of situation (he basically would 'teach' them the law - remember, he's over 65).
When asked about foreigners in a similar situation, he was less specific. Because foreigners agree to certain conditions on their Status of Sojourn, they may have to present ID upon request (he was less clear on this point simply because he is not an Immi lawyer). He advised any foreigner in a similar situation to ask why they are presenting their ID and to comply if they think it is a good enough reason. He also said that if a foreigner was detained for no reason other than not presenting their ID, that they'd have 'some' legal grounds in which to lodge a complaint.
He did state over and over again that the less someone (Korean or foreigner) chooses to cooperate with the officers, the greater chance of 'stress' (his word) in the situation. He said that while an officer should have probable cause to question a person, that they can often 'find reason' on the scene even afterwards (and no, he did not get into specifics).
He also outlined a scenario where a foreigner might be within their legal rights not to show ID, but could still find themselves on a plane heading out of the country... and THEN trying to find legal recourse.
To sum it up, he said if you want to deal with an angry officer, you had better know your stuff.
**here's my disclaimer: This is all from memory in a very casual conversation. He's a friend of mine that I'm lucky to have. I don't push legal questions on him because I believe it would be bad form. He is a fine conversationalist though, and he enjoyed the few minutes we talked about this. I'd suggest that if anyone wants to know more, that they contact a lawyer that specializes in Immigration law. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What constitutes looking like a foreigner then? |
Not looking ethnically Korean. Don't you understand? You're Western PC human rights, crying 'discrimination' shtick doesn't hold any water over here. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What constitutes looking like a foreigner then? |
Not looking ethnically Korean. Don't you understand?
You're Western PC human rights, crying 'discrimination' shtick doesn't hold any water over here. |
Wanna bet? |
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The Grumpy Senator
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Location: Up and down the 6 line
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks CC. |
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