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Scientists probe meditation secrets..
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Scientists probe meditation secrets.. Reply with quote

Page last updated at 09:58 GMT, Monday, 31 March 2008 10:58 UK
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Scientists probe meditation secrets
By Naomi Law


There is evidence that meditation changes brain structures
Scientists are beginning to uncover evidence that meditation has a tangible effect on the brain.

Sceptics argue that it is not a practical way to try to deal with the stresses of modern life.

But the long years when adherents were unable to point to hard science to support their belief in the technique may finally be coming to an end.

So should we dismiss it as quackery? Studies from the field of neuroscience suggest not.

It is a new area of research, but indications are intriguing and suggest that meditation may have a measurable impact on the brain.

In Boston, Massachusetts, Dr Sara Lazar has used a technique called MRI scanning to analyse the brains of people who have been meditating for several years.

She compared the brains of these experienced practitioners with people who had never meditated and found that there were differences in the thickness of certain areas of the brain's cortex, including areas involved in the processing of emotion.

MEDITATIONFORDAMASSES
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

METTA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81

http://www.dalailama.com/page.188.htm


Last edited by igotthisguitar on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sceptics argue that it is not a practical way to try to deal with the stresses of modern life.


I'm skeptical of meditation. When more(much more) research is done, and it shown to have have a tangible effect, I will stop being skeptical.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Oh ye of so little faith ..."

Presumably you're not familiar with the story of the man who was shot by the poisoned arrow, laying on the battle-field ... dying ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
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stillnotking



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Meditation" is a misleading word, because a great deal of what people consider "meditation" is not meditation at all, merely visualization or reverie.

True meditation is not about how you sit or what you think about, it's the simple act of being consciously aware of your thoughts. (I say "simple", but in practice this is extraordinarily hard to do consistently.) Meditation produces dissociation from the ego, a decline in the mind's reflexive identification of "self" and "thought". Of course this fundamental change is going to be reflected in the structure of the brain (this is not to disparage the legitimate and laudable scientific inquiry into the nature of the change, just poking gentle fun at our so-often-unexamined dualistic assumptions). That's like being surprised that regular exercise makes you lose weight.

Skeptical about meditation? There's an easy answer: try it and see. As the old Zen saying goes, if you dip your finger in the water, no one needs to tell you whether it's hot or cold. Check out one of the many good introductory guides to meditation -- John Daishin's Zen Meditation in Plain English is excellent -- or attend an introductory meditation class somewhere near you. Then spend 10 minutes meditating every morning for a few weeks and see if your outlook doesn't start to change.

Meditation is utterly pragmatic and not mysterious at all. It's a shame that so many Westerners regard it as some sort of bogeyman or supernatural process.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Scientists probe meditation secrets.. Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:

Sceptics argue that it is not a practical way to try to deal with the stresses of modern life.


What skeptics? Relaxation techniques of most kinds are not dismissed by medical or health science. Whether one wants to argue chanting "eye eem" and burning incense is more effective than say sitting and reading a book with classical music in the background is a matter of debate.

Quote:
She compared the brains of these experienced practitioners with people who had never meditated and found that there were differences in the thickness of certain areas of the brain's cortex, including areas involved in the processing of emotion.


Correlation/causation problem, of course. I notice tall people play more basketball. Does basketball make people tall? It is also possible people with such thick areas of their cortex are more suited to this type of relaxation. I have many wonderful ways to relax, but sitting and mediating isn't one of them. People who can hack this kind of boredom might already have the rigging in place.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillnotking wrote:
"Meditation" is a misleading word, because a great deal of what people consider "meditation" is not meditation at all, merely visualization or reverie.

True meditation is not about how you sit or what you think about, it's the simple act of being consciously aware of your thoughts. (I say "simple", but in practice this is extraordinarily hard to do consistently.)

Meditation produces dissociation from the ego, a decline in the mind's reflexive identification of "self" and "thought". Of course this fundamental change is going to be reflected in the structure of the brain (this is not to disparage the legitimate and laudable scientific inquiry into the nature of the change, just poking gentle fun at our so-often-unexamined dualistic assumptions). That's like being surprised that regular exercise makes you lose weight.

Skeptical about meditation? There's an easy answer: try it and see.

As the old Zen saying goes, if you dip your finger in the water, no one needs to tell you whether it's hot or cold. Check out one of the many good introductory guides to meditation -- John Daishin's Zen Meditation in Plain English is excellent -- or attend an introductory meditation class somewhere near you. Then spend 10 minutes meditating every morning for a few weeks and see if your outlook doesn't start to change.

Meditation is utterly pragmatic and not mysterious at all. It's a shame that so many Westerners regard it as some sort of bogeyman or supernatural process.


Thank-you King and well stated.

There is one thing mind you which i differ on. That is, meditation is not a "misleading word" in & of itself, so much as many people in the west have, for whatever reason, simply allowed themselves to be misled as to what it truly means.

*yawn*

Now where have we seen this before?

Anyways, if you promise not to inform any of the world's ubiquitiously "prohibitive" legislators, or their criminal pharmaceutcial racket buddies,
i'll let y'all in on a little "open" ( as in OPEN your eyes ) secret:

MEDI-tation = MEDI=cation.

Ssssssssshhhhhhhhhh ! Wink

p.s. COGITO ERGO SUM?
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

igotthisguitar wrote:
Anyways, if you promise not to inform any of the world's ubiquitiously "prohibitive" legislators, or their criminal pharmaceutcial racket buddies,
i'll let y'all in on a little "open" ( as in OPEN your eyes ) secret:

MEDI-tation = MEDI=cation.

Ssssssssshhhhhhhhhh ! Wink

p.s. COGITO ERGO SUM?


REALLY poor sentence structure. Incomprehensible. Shocked
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meditation is part of every religious persuasion, not just Zen. The Eastern Orthodox Church and some Eastern Catholic Churches still have a strong mystical foundation. Intense prayer can fall into meditation if it is not simply a supplication, if it is a concentrated thought of prayer, pouring through love of God like Brother (Frere) Andre of Montreal did. Of course, many studies have shown meditation to have health benefits.
There was a similar article about this in Time Magazine a few years back. I wish I had it on me. I really enjoyed it reading it. Meditation takes a lot of practice and will power sometimes..
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
Meditation takes a lot of practice and will power sometimes..


When does it NOT take will power & effort? Laughing
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillnotking wrote:
"Meditation" is a misleading word, because a great deal of what people consider "meditation" is not meditation at all, merely visualization or reverie.

True meditation is not about how you sit or what you think about, it's the simple act of being consciously aware of your thoughts. (I say "simple", but in practice this is extraordinarily hard to do consistently.) Meditation produces dissociation from the ego, a decline in the mind's reflexive identification of "self" and "thought".

Actually, meditation consists of emptying the mind of all thought. It s not so easy to do, especially when one is beginning so the next best thing is to concentrate on a single thought (beam of light, OM, etc.)
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
Meditation is part of every religious persuasion, not just Zen. The Eastern Orthodox Church and some Eastern Catholic Churches still have a strong mystical foundation. Intense prayer can fall into meditation if it is not simply a supplication, if it is a concentrated thought of prayer, pouring through love of God like Brother (Frere) Andre of Montreal did.

As Guru Sri Chinmoy says, "When I pray, I talk and God listens; when I meditate, I listen and God talks."
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meditation when it is relaxation without the religious clap trap is good.
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desultude



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
Adventurer wrote:

Sceptics argue that it is not a practical way to try to deal with the stresses of modern life.


What skeptics? Relaxation techniques of most kinds are not dismissed by medical or health science. Whether one wants to argue chanting "eye eem" and burning incense is more effective than say sitting and reading a book with classical music in the background is a matter of debate.

Quote:
She compared the brains of these experienced practitioners with people who had never meditated and found that there were differences in the thickness of certain areas of the brain's cortex, including areas involved in the processing of emotion.


Correlation/causation problem, of course. I notice tall people play more basketball. Does basketball make people tall? It is also possible people with such thick areas of their cortex are more suited to this type of relaxation. I have many wonderful ways to relax, but sitting and mediating isn't one of them. People who can hack this kind of boredom might already have the rigging in place.


There have been brain scan tests done with practicing Buddhist monks which have had interesting findings. But at the moment I can't be fussed looking for them online.

Yes, the proof is in the practice- Meditators can tell you what meditation can do for you, but you really have to try it yourself. The benefits are obvious to me when I make the effort and meditate regularly or not.

It keeps me relatively sane over here in Saudi Arabia. (Of course, I have a top secret meditation chamber, because it is illegal to practice any religion here other than Islam. Cool ) And too many people think of meditation as being a "religious" practice.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
Of course, many studies have shown meditation to have health benefits.
There was a similar article about this in Time Magazine a few years back. I wish I had it on me. I really enjoyed it reading it. Meditation takes a lot of practice and will power sometimes..


By meditation, I'm assuming we mean where you sit and think or try to clear your mind of thoughts and beyond some soft music, you're involved in no other activity.

I would call this a form of relaxation. Reading, doing paper tole, playing piano, cycling, sailing, walking your dog, I would also call forms of relaxation. Relaxation has health benefits, in terms of stress and pain perception. Stress and pain have established subjective components. This is one of the reasons placebos work well.

Some people are good at paper tole, some people are good at piano, some people are good at meditation. Many of us find our preferred way of relaxing. Some of us don't.

Beyond that, where my skepticism would come in is making the unwarranted assumption from the current data that meditation is superior to other forms of relaxation. I don't think anyone here is making that overt claim. However, it's a bit like someone who thinks Freudian psychology is effective in treating mental illness and offers as evidence a study comparing people who undergo Freudian therapy and those who seek no treatment from a mental health professional. And the study shows people who get the therapy have a better prognosis. This then confirms for them the underlying assumptions. However, they don't then compare other forms of talk therapy: Rogerian, cognitive, play therapy, and even just talking once a week to your local bartender. If such a study revealed all groups were roughly equal, then what is the dependent variable you are really measuring?
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