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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:51 pm Post subject: Racism in the Advertising of ESL positions - what can we do? |
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I just think that post wasn't put very well.
Of course Dave isn't racist, he's an EFL specialist and businessman, so I don't think it was very polite to the man who provides this forum for us to express ourselves through.
The topic however, does merit discussion and I would like to rephrase the question,
"Is Dave aware of some occasional apparently racist practices in the recruiting of some of his clients in Korea, and could we suggest that language such as "Whites only need apply" be removed from their positions vacant advertising posts?"
The same point can be raised rather tactfully and politely. Dave is of course not racist, but some of his clients are. He is a businessman, how can he deal with this?
Last edited by Butterfly on Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| If the racist language is taken out of the advertisements, can't they pretty easily just carry on with their racist hiring practices. They'll just ask you in email or on the phone what race you are and if you're not white you won't get the job. Taking the language out of the advertisements won't stop it. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| If the racist language is taken out of the advertisements, can't they pretty easily just carry on with their racist hiring practices. They'll just ask you in email or on the phone what race you are and if you're not white you won't get the job. Taking the language out of the advertisements won't stop it. |
Absolutely, as in the west, it won't and doesn't stop it.
But then by that rationale would you lift the ban on such language in our respective countries? I doubt you would.
I don't think things ought to be made easier for racist people, perhaps if they are not allowed to use such language, then non-white people will approach them for jobs, and it might open their minds.
I'm an idealist I know, but anyway, I certainly think the topic merits discussion. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
I'm an idealist I know, but anyway, I certainly think the topic merits discussion. |
So do I.The question is, is there anything that Dave Sperling or any of us can do which will effect change in the fundamental problem of racism in part of the Korean workforce?
Cheers!
Harpeau
P.S. The thread was pruned to reflect the focus of the discussion. Nothing personal against those whose posts were removed. Let's focus on how we can grapple with this important issue, OK? Cheers! |
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William Beckerson
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Well, hate to be the stinker here... but I think anyone who benefits or takes advanage of an industry that is based on racist hiring policies should pack their bags out of guilt and leave Korea tomorrow!
SO.... I guess I'll be seeing every single last one of you at Incheon Airport tomorrow? We can make it a spur of the moment ESL Cafe bash.
WELL?
No?
Then shut up about the problem of racism in Korea, because as long as you're still drawing a paycheck here, you're as guilty as they are.
You bunch of damned uppity Uncle Toms. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Then shut up about the problem of racism in Korea, because as long as you're still drawing a paycheck here, you're as guilty as they are.
You bunch of damned uppity Uncle Toms. |
I fail to see the logic in this one. There's racism in every country, so by your logic I just shouldn't work anywhere. Thanks! Are you gonna support me dude?
BTW if you're still going to Japan the situation is pretty similar though not quite as bad. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Harpeau wrote: |
P.S. The thread was pruned to reflect the focus of the discussion. Nothing personal against those whose posts were removed. Let's focus on how we can grapple with this important issue, OK? Cheers! |
Y'know, this board is eerily like the way the Korean government treats the media.
If by using the word "pruned" you actually meant censored, then we're both seeing eye to eye.
I suppose that since I started this thread, the PM telling me it was being moved and censored got lost somewhere in cyberspace, huh?
Sparkles*_* |
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William Beckerson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Kiwi: I'm saying we're as guilty as the Koreans when it comes to supporting a racist industry. If someone was serious about wanting to change it, they shouldn't be part of the system.
We who make money from it, are part of the problem.
This topic comes up frequently. And despite our best impulses, (And I'm not saying wanting to see a positive change in this regard is bad) change will only come once the Koreans themselves decide to change it.
The only other option is to impose our rule upon their society until it looks the way we want it to. |
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Coffeecup
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:00 am Post subject: |
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I encourage ALL Korean employers to make WHATEVER avertisements and/or requirements for future employees they wish to. And I encourage Dave Sperling to place ANY kind of advertisement that he receives in as long as the advertisement is not a hoax or scam.
---> If a Korean employer wants to hire with RACE as a factor, I so "go ahead and do it." This happens frequently in universities where mostly or only Kyopo (2nd gen Korean Americans) are hired. I say go ahead and do it. And apparently some of you guys need to get REAL, and real quick. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Beckerson, I usually agree (silently) with most of the stuff you post on here. However, it seems that what you are proposing is almost defeatist. The idea that we are just as guilty as the koreans for benefitting from this system seems a bit simplistic. I think that by being here and informing and educating Koreans we are taking small but significant steps.
To simply say that we should leave would be the same as admitting defeat which I am not really keen on doing. I am lucky in the sense that I am a light skinned brother so I have the oppurtunity to get a job here. While I am here I am going to tell everyone I meet my background (Trinidadian) and educate them about it. The idea is that through increased knowledge many myths can be dispelled. Much of Korea's racism is based on ignorance and a lack of education.
As for your belief that Koreans will only change when they decide to, I can only say that "white" America did not accept blacks by choice. Rather, they were faced with a unhappy population (black) that would not sit by idly anymore while they were being exploited and oppressed. The increased globilization of the world will inevitably force Korea to realize some sad truths about itself. Hopefully one of them will involve their neanderthal approach to race. However constant presure must be applied in every form. That pressure can range from something as simple as making it more difficult for recruiters to weed out "undesireables" to global rebukes (through the ILO) about its obviously racist hiring policies. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ugh.. I'm sick of this thread.
Maybe all countries should avoid all business with Korea due to racism.
Gosh forbid we should hold Dave accountable for the way other people think. Why is it that the little people of this world always expect the people who are working hard and making money to pay the price for PC ideology?
If you don't like the way Dave does things, then you're welcome to create your own website and not allow certain hagwons to advertise. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think anyone is asking Dave to be held responsible for Korea's racism. I think what is being argued is whether Dave should make it so easy for Koreans to continue their racist hiring policies.
Derrek, if you don't like the thread don't come. Obviously this does not affect you that much and in the true way of the west, if it doesn't affect you feel free to stick your head in the sand.
As for the small people comment, I know so many people, great people who have fought for equality. Maybe you have heard of a few of them, Martin luther King, Mohatma Ghandhi. Small people? Don't confuse PC with a fight for equality. If you are happy with your privileged position go ahead and enjoy it. No one is asking you to do anything.
I have never heard anyone say it is PC to ask for non racist hiring policies. Furthermore it is something that Korea agreed to when they signed the ILO convention on basic labour rights.
Funny how there are so many who complain about the way Koreans treat them being foreigners, then when faced with something as tangible as racist hiring policies, they get annoyed at our small mindedness. I guess what is good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander.
Hey as long as you benefit from the racism, right!!! |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't completely agree that it is the schools who are being racist. The parents are the ones who demand white North American teachers. It is an economic factor of supply and demand. Also, many Koreans do not consider Korean-Americans to be Americans. Therefore, wanting American or Canadian teachers, the school is not excluding gyopos based on race, but on perceived nationality. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| crito03 wrote: |
I don't think anyone is asking Dave to be held responsible for Korea's racism. I think what is being argued is whether Dave should make it so easy for Koreans to continue their racist hiring policies.
Derrek, if you don't like the thread don't come. Obviously this does not affect you that much and in the true way of the west, if it doesn't affect you feel free to stick your head in the sand.
As for the small people comment, I know so many people, great people who have fought for equality. Maybe you have heard of a few of them, Martin luther King, Mohatma Ghandhi. Small people? Don't confuse PC with a fight for equality. If you are happy with your privileged position go ahead and enjoy it. No one is asking you to do anything.
I have never heard anyone say it is PC to ask for non racist hiring policies. Furthermore it is something that Korea agreed to when they signed the ILO convention on basic labour rights.
Funny how there are so many who complain about the way Koreans treat them being foreigners, then when faced with something as tangible as racist hiring policies, they get annoyed at our small mindedness. I guess what is good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander.
Hey as long as you benefit from the racism, right!!! |
Ok Ghandi....
Why do you feel Dave should be the one to Police things the way you want it? Whether Dave likes it or not (and it's his own darn business what he thinks) it's the Korean people who demand having white-faced teachers.
I used to work at a Hagwon that had hired a black teacher in the previous year before. The owner wanted to be proactive and non-biased in hiring. As a result, people pulled their children out of the school and/or threatened to do such and complained. Not because of his performance, but because of his color.
Now that Hagwon owner won't hire a black person ever again. Or even a Gyopo.
Is that right? No. Is it reality? Yes.
Is it Dave's responsibility to tell such an owner, "I won't take your money because you won't hire non-whites?"
Heck no!
The problem is with the Korean people, as was previously stated. Perhaps you would do better to make a sign that says, "Korea -- you are racist!!!!" and stand in the middle of Myeong-Dong or something. Then maybe you will start fixing the problem. Perhaps you'll even become a martyr -- who knows.
Go ahead and hate me, invalidate me because I "benefit" from the status-quo, attempt to intimidate me by calling me a racist, or whatever you chose to do. If you want to say I'm "sticking my head in the sand", then so be it. Your opinion is nothing more than that -- an opinion.
And the reason I am posting here is because I think the idiot who kept posting the "Why is Dave's Racist" posts deserves to hear some argument from the other end.
In my opinion, people who throw around the "R" word should be subject to a lawsuit, as it can hurt/damage business. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Tiberius and crito03: When you told your boss you'd quit tomorrow unless he hired more non-whites, how'd it go?
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| If you don't like the way Dave does things, then you're welcome to create your own website and not allow certain hagwons to advertise. |
Sometimes people forget that Dave Sperling and this website isn't the government, or the ESL Human Rights Commission. There's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from contacting (by phone, e-mail, or in person -take your pick) the offending schools that advertise here or anywhere else and telling them that their policies are wrong. Or if they're teaching at a school with no non-white teachers, from marching into their school's office and demanding the boss start hiring non-whites. And if they won't change their hiring policies, they'll quit.
But it seems people would rather the owner of some website do it. Or they don't care that badly about this to do anything themselves.
File this under "talk is cheap". Most of us are the beneficiaries of a racist hiring system, and we know it. And at the end of the day most of us have chosen to keep our ideas to ourselves and take the cheques. |
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